KCRag Forum

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:12 pm**

^Small urban markets to bodegas still exist even in NYC with 5X or more rent, no reason Plaza couldn't support one. And yes prices would need to reflect Plaza rent. Offer items unique to the area and should do well, such as a market with finely prepared foods that constantly adjusts to modern tastes (more than a notch above Cosentinos). Maybe team with the many local James Beard chefs where each item involves various local chef creations and updated each season with bonus that the neighborhood can still walk to get a gallon of milk like a real urban neighborhood. There's probably more living around Plaza with higher relative income than ever before and more residential should now be added within. Is baffling Plaza doesn't have a market especially now.

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:59 pm**

earthling wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:12 pm ^Small urban markets to bodegas still exist even in NYC with 5X or more rent, no reason Plaza couldn't support one. And yes prices would need to reflect Plaza rent. Offer items unique to the area and should do well, such as a market with finely prepared foods that constantly adjusts to modern tastes (more than a notch above Cosentinos). Maybe team with the many local James Beard chefs where each item involves various local chef creations and updated each season with bonus that the neighborhood can still walk to get a gallon of milk like a real urban neighborhood. There's probably more living around Plaza with higher relative income than ever before and more residential should now be added within. Is baffling Plaza doesn't have a market especially now.

Yes, but in NYC you'd have to pull your car out of the parking garage, drive 10-45 minutes depending on traffic, pay for grocery parking and drive back. It's not the same.

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:21 pm**

^You've never lived in a walkable area in other cities apparently. Small markets still function in every major city, especially where there is higher income. I own a Plaza area condo that I rent out short term and every bigger city visitor is baffled an area like this has no place to get the basics. My Brooklyn brother stayed in it for free and said he'd rather pay to stay in River Market where he can walk to get the basics. It's baffling Plaza doesn't have the basics and stranger yet that some actually think Plaza shouldn't have this.

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:51 pm**

earthling wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:21 pm ^You've never lived in a walkable area in other cities apparently. Small markets still function in every major city, especially where there is higher income.

Unfortunately, this is not Kansas City. The higher income people do not live on the Plaza or downtown. And the culture is not to walk...yet. It's just not. I wish it was different. We had a market on the west side of the Plaza a few years ago. It didn't last very long. And maybe the sky has opened and we're a different city, but I'm not so sure. I think the older people that live around the Plaza would change to grocery delivery before they would change to pulling a cart or walking to get items. Maybe, I'm dead wrong. I hope I am. Probably would help your short-term rental issue.

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:24 pm**

There are fewer people living around the greater Plaza area than in the past--even with the addition of new apartments. People aren't having as many children, and many houses and apartments have one person living in them. It's not just the Plaza area, it's all over the metro.

Of course, this is affecting retail on the Plaza. Formulas for retail have to be updated to reflect this demographic change taking into account online purchasing. The Plaza might not be able to have as much retail as in the past.

Density levels have to increase by a lot around the Plaza for it to survive as a shopping center. The Plaza needs a lot more new luxury product built to attract more residents who can afford to shop in higher-end stores.

It is time for any property owner there to consider mixing in more general resident amenities. You can mix higher-end stores with health clinics, grocery, and drug stores. It won't kill the Plaza to mix in a few fast-food restaurants as well. I still think the Plaza needs a movie theater. I wonder if business fell off for restaurants a bit after the Tivoli and Cinemark Plaza closed.

My main reasons for going to the Plaza for years were eating out, seeing a movie, and the bookstore -- often in the same outing.

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:34 pm**

FangKC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:24 pm There are fewer people living around the greater Plaza area than in the past--even with the addition of new apartments. People aren't having as many children, and many houses and apartments have one person living in them. It's not just the Plaza area, it's all over the metro.

Of course, this is affecting retail on the Plaza. Formulas for retail have to be updated to reflect this demographic change taking into account online purchasing. The Plaza might not be able to have as much retail as in the past.

Density levels have to increase by a lot around the Plaza for it to survive as a shopping center. The Plaza needs a lot more new luxury product built to attract more residents who can afford to shop in higher-end stores.

It is time for any property owner there to consider mixing in more general resident amenities. You can mix higher-end stores with health clinics, grocery, and drug stores. It won't kill the Plaza to mix in a few fast-food restaurants as well. I still think the Plaza needs a movie theater. I wonder if business fell off for restaurants a bit after the Tivoli and Cinemark Plaza closed.

My main reasons for going to the Plaza for years were eating out, seeing a movie, and the bookstore -- often in the same outing.

I'd agree with all of this. The problem is financial. These property management companies try desperately to keep their rents high and uniform across the district. This way, they can take out loans based on the entire square footage of the district at the high rent rate, even if more and more of those storefronts don't have businesses in them. I'd be worried that slashing rents for a new mix of businesses would cause major issues with the funding sources for the district owners. Their loans might even be called. We've seen this across the country with shopping malls and money loaners are watching very closely.

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:46 pm**

There are more apts/condos around immediate Plaza than in the 80s, not fewer. Fang, you are probably correct at the zipcode level but not at the walkable area. Outer Plaza may have more family-less impact where there are single family homes but that's not walkable from Plaza anyway. Homes to N Plaza have been torn down for denser apts/condos, more hotel rooms as well since last century. And Plaza used to be affordable to service industry workers up to 90s but no longer is, so the average income has relatively risen over time, as well as disposable income. There does need to be more residential increase within Plaza boundaries but even w/out there's higher relative buying power than last century w/in walking distance by nature that (unfortunately) it's no longer affordable to service industry workers as it used to be.

A market that offers something unique like prepared foods from local James Beard chefs would probably be wildly successful as long as it evolves seasonally as the income level and denser pops are now at the right level to support it. Though more residential within 'bowl' would help ensure success.

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:52 pm**

Let's see if the new streetcar terminus helps bring in a new wave of energy and places to the Plaza. This is our best terminus on the whole track, so it could really alleviate alot of the problems you guys are mentioning.

This is why we dropped $300mil+ into this thing. To try and help fix this type of problem without having to sit around and wait for a savior.

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:54 pm**

earthling wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:46 pm There are more apts/condos around immediate Plaza than in the 80s, not fewer. Fang, you are probably correct at the zipcode level but not at the walkable area. Outer Plaza may have more family-less impact where there are single family homes but that's not walkable from Plaza anyway. Homes to N Plaza have been torn down for denser apts/condos, more hotel rooms as well since last century. ...

That's why I said "greater Plaza area." All those SFHs for blocks in every direction have fewer people living in them. These were the feeder blocks for Plaza retail and entertainment. You'd have to build even more high-density apartment projects adjacent to the Plaza itself to make up for the population decline in the greater Plaza retail catchment. Remember the Plaza was originally built to accommodate vehicles. People driving there account for a majority of customers. That's not to say that more apartments need to be built where people can walk there. It's also why I said more higher-end resident product needs to be built there.

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:56 pm**

Is KC too small to support 2 areas that have the upscale chains and high rents?

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:04 pm**

moderne wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:56 pm Is KC too small to support 2 areas that have the upscale chains and high rents?

I don't believe so. As you know, the region is growing as well so the area can support two.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:03 am**

moderne wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:56 pm Is KC too small to support 2 areas that have the upscale chains and high rents?

I would say that P&L has affected some of the activity on the Plaza. You used to have Tomfooleries and Mi Cocina and O'Dowds and the old Grandfaloon. I remember a piano bar above where Tivol is now. All were packed! I think the area has lost some nightlife appeal as they've tried to be more "family-friendly". They've definitely lost some of their locality.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:04 am**

The KC metro has roughly the same population as greater Stockholm. It’s all about how you arrange it.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:16 am**

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:03 am
moderne wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:56 pm Is KC too small to support 2 areas that have the upscale chains and high rents?
I would say that P&L has affected some of the activity on the Plaza. You used to have Tomfooleries and Mi Cocina and O'Dowds and the old Grandfaloon. I remember a piano bar above where Tivol is now. All were packed! I think the area has lost some nightlife appeal as they've tried to be more "family-friendly". They've definitely lost some of their locality.

Good. Keep shifting the nightlife downtown where it belongs. The Plaza being more family friendly as a result isn’t a bad thing tbh.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:08 am**

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:16 am
beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:03 am
moderne wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:56 pm Is KC too small to support 2 areas that have the upscale chains and high rents?
I would say that P&L has affected some of the activity on the Plaza. You used to have Tomfooleries and Mi Cocina and O'Dowds and the old Grandfaloon. I remember a piano bar above where Tivol is now. All were packed! I think the area has lost some nightlife appeal as they've tried to be more "family-friendly". They've definitely lost some of their locality.
Good. Keep shifting the nightlife downtown where it belongs. The Plaza being more family friendly as a result isn’t a bad thing tbh.

I disagree. It hurts the restaurants not having bars to go to after dinner. If in-person high end retail is drying up, bars are being pushed DT, movies are eliminated because it brings kids that "cause problems" and family-friendly is the only demographic you're going for...the Plaza will fail.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:17 am**

earthling wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:28 am The next evolution needs to be more residential within Plaza boundaries, at least on top of existing parking garages. Taubman/Simon have been doing a little better mixed use with some of their properties but not very experienced, generic mall operation is their core biz. Would like to see them sell to a true urban mixed use developer/operator or sell in pieces.

Why does the Plaza need more residential within its boundaries? I don't get it. There are a lot of large condos and apartment complexes around the plaza (literally within a stones throw) with more being built every year. These new residential buildings are built from the ground up as condos and apartments and the numbers of residents they add dwarf the numbers that could be added above the few parking garages on the Plaza that could be retrofitted. Why destroy the aesthetic appeal of the buildings on the Plaza that have ornate towers and domes by adding apartments above the garages in these buildings?

There might be a few buildings like the Saks building that might lend itself to this but I don't see the need. The Plaza is 3 blocks wide, it's easily covered on foot by anyone but the very elderly that live in the adjacent residential areas. Given the vacancy rate on the plaza, I don't see a problem with some neighborhood type services being offered like an upscale food market but not sure large scale residential is a good way forward. There would be massive opposition and anything more than a few units in a few buildings would threaten the uniqueness of the area.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:28 am**

Nordstrom’s, Cinemark, Saks, and Starbucks blocks could be bulldozed and rebuilt with residential above retail and we wouldn’t loose anything.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:45 am**

normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:28 am Nordstrom’s, Cinemark, Saks, and Starbucks blocks could be bulldozed and rebuilt with residential above retail and we wouldn’t loose anything.

That's somewhat true. As I said the opportunities for what Earthling suggests are very limited and it would not add many residents unless built very high which is very unlikely to happen. Take a look at google maps an you will see a considerable amount of unused space north and northwest of the plaza where there is plenty of room to add a significant number of new residents. A lot of small poorly maintained bungalows and apartment also still exist in the north Plaza area. Space is not the issue.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:57 am**

Goonies wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:36 am
beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:03 am
moderne wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:56 pm Is KC too small to support 2 areas that have the upscale chains and high rents?
I would say that P&L has affected some of the activity on the Plaza. You used to have Tomfooleries and Mi Cocina and O'Dowds and the old Grandfaloon. I remember a piano bar above where Tivol is now. All were packed! I think the area has lost some nightlife appeal as they've tried to be more "family-friendly". They've definitely lost some of their locality.
O'Dowds and Grandfalloon are still packed

With doormen and waiting lines around the block? I haven't seen that at O'Dowd's in some time. And Grandfalloon is dead to me. The dirty mess of the original has too many memories to mess up with the beige living room that now bears the name.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:00 pm**

Highlander wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:45 am
normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:28 am Nordstrom’s, Cinemark, Saks, and Starbucks blocks could be bulldozed and rebuilt with residential above retail and we wouldn’t loose anything.
That's somewhat true. As I said the opportunities for what Earthling suggests are very limited and it would not add many residents unless built very high which is very unlikely to happen. Take a look at google maps an you will see a considerable amount of unused space north and northwest of the plaza where there is plenty of room to add a significant number of new residents. A lot of small poorly maintained bungalows and apartment also still exist in the north Plaza area. Space is not the issue.

I do support adding residential in and around. Adding residents directly in the Plaza will make it feel less dead at night and hopefully better support night activities. It’s just one component of a turnaround but an important one in my opinion.

Narrowing the streets within the Plaza is also needed. I don't love the idea of a pedestrian mall but streets don't need to be 60' wide. Turn that into outdoor dining or

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