Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

[FangKC]

We have to acknowledge that a lot of retailers have gone out of business in the past few years, and more of their competition comes from online sales. This is also affecting the Plaza's ability to attract retailers.

Retail stores exist sometimes on very small margins. How many of you routinely order things off Amazon and Ebay?

Amazon has almost put physical bookstores out of business. I expect the next big closure on the Plaza will be Barnes & Noble.

[rxlexi]

I generally agree with the sentiment that the Plaza should be able to attract higher-end retailers; it's sad to me that stuff like Crate & Barrel, Restoration Hardware, etc. is out south (exclusively).

I spent Halloween weekend in Denver and stayed in the heart of Cherry Creek. That area has an impressive mix of local retailers and all of the national "luxe" stuff, along with some outdoors oriented retail as you might expect (Yeti, Arcterix, etc.). At this point, kind of puts the Plaza to shame from a retail mix standpoint. I'm assuming the demos in the area are roughly similar, and that metro Denver probably supports multiple locations for some of this stuff (Crate & Barrel)?

There is no reason (aside from perhaps available square footage for some of the home goods) the Plaza can't return to offering more local and neighborhood oriented stuff along with being the primary metro location for the majority of higher-end shopping. Perhaps not having a large mall adjacent or nearby is an issue, even as malls generally are dying (a la Cherry Creek, STL Galleria/Frontenac, North Park Dallas)?

[dukuboy1]

The Plaza hasn't always been high-end. It used to have a Woolworth's discount store, a Sears, grocery store, and even gas stations.

https://kchistory.org/image/woolworths- ... fset%5D=11

https://kchistory.org/image/country-clu ... fset%5D=13

https://kchistory.org/image/plaza-stand ... fset%5D=13

And there used to be a McDonalds next to the former movie theater entrance.

those are cool photos, thanks for sharing. Looks like the gas station was from around the 40's maybe 50's? Back when it was servicing the neighborhood around the area and well before it became a higher end retail area. That Sear was in the build that eventually Sak's 5th Ave came into correct? as for the Woolworth's that looks to be 1970's, maybe early 80's. It appears to be on the corner where Plaza III was located? The McDonalds is now Noodles & Company, which is fine. But McDonalds as a dine in/carry out only option was fine.

AT any rate the Plaza underwent a transformation to high end retail and dining. The dining still exists, the retail is hit or miss. Perhaps it should become an entertainment district with dining, residences and some businesses. Maybe everyone shops online anymore so it doesn't matter to have brick & mortar. I know I shop online, but if I have to return anything it can be a pain.

I'd love to see the Plaza bring back some more local boutiques and businesses. Some of the better stores down there now are local. A mix of that and unique/exclusive retail locations would be cool. Target is a fine retailer but it the same thing located all over the Metro. Bring in something unique. Hell people want a grocery store there, move Trader Joes there.

What really sucks in all of this is the Plaza was being a good partner with Nordstrom. They helped in moving Capital Grille, they gave up the BOA and place that used to have the high end burger place that the owners eventually ran into the ground. But it was still a good space. And they wiped out the movie theatres over there all for Nordstrom. IF any of the rumors are true I really hope that the Plaza was smart enough to get a contract that had some teeth and will hold them accountable. They remade about a half block of the Plaza, getting a Target is bait and switch and pennies on the dollar in terms of the ROI.

[dukuboy1]

Plus given the really good Christmas Season retail numbers for 2021 (record breaking) it shows that the Pandemic has not really slowed down consumerism that much. Obviously travel, entertainments, dining have been hit hardest by being businesses that thrive on people in seats so to speak. But I would think once the end of this tunnel is reach (which it will and thank god we can see the light despite the current fog) there will be an overcorrection of people wanting to get out and visit retail stores, and get a sense of normalcy. Sure they were shopping online before but they still want to shop and any time you force limitations on ppl they will push back and that could mean more trips to the store. Or people just wanting a choice. yes I can shop online but maybe I want to go to the store as well. Buy online pickup in store. Maybe try it on there and see what is up. If it doesn't fit you can buy something in the store maybe and instant exchange. Or if not you are in the store and can return it there and not go through the hassle of sending it back. Retail locations are still popular. It's just we are saturated and every new development, etc. has the same formula. Sometimes it works others it does not.

[AlkaliAxel]

At this point, kind of puts the Plaza to shame from a retail mix standpoint. I'm assuming the demos in the area are roughly similar, and that metro Denver probably supports multiple locations for some of this stuff (Crate & Barrel)?

If it were just about high end retail then the Plaza would be the same more or less as probably most metro's in having some outdoor mall with nice stores.

What puts the Plaza over places like Denver's (and others) outdoor malls is the unique architecture, fountains, statues and general vibe. Alot of people go there just to walk. The Plaza will get even stronger when the streetcar is opened.

But the selling point of the Plaza over something like Town Center or wherever is the design & vibe.

[FangKC]

The Plaza hasn't always been high-end. It used to have a Woolworth's discount store, a Sears, grocery store, and even gas stations.

those are cool photos, thanks for sharing. Looks like the gas station was from around the 40's maybe 50's? Back when it was servicing the neighborhood around the area and well before it became a higher end retail area. That Sear was in the build that eventually Sak's 5th Ave came into correct?
...

When the Sears closed, it was converted into the Seville Square shops, and later into the east portion of the Cinemark movie theater complex. The part where you entered the theater.

[FangKC]

What really sucks in all of this is the Plaza was being a good partner with Nordstrom. They helped in moving Capital Grille, they gave up the BOA and place that used to have the high end burger place that the owners eventually ran into the ground. But it was still a good space. And they wiped out the movie theatres over there all for Nordstrom. IF any of the rumors are true I really hope that the Plaza was smart enough to get a contract that had some teeth and will hold them accountable. They remade about a half block of the Plaza, getting a Target is bait and switch and pennies on the dollar in terms of the ROI.

One would hope they have some legal remedy if Nordstrom pulls out.

[Highlander]

I'm assuming the demos in the area are roughly similar, and that metro Denver probably supports multiple locations for some of this stuff (Crate & Barrel)?

The demographics are not that similar between the Plaza and Cherry Creek. In every direction away from Cherry Creek, there are mid-to-upper income residents that are capable of supporting Cherry Creek and there is a considerably large very wealthy community in the immediate area of Cherry Creek. Practically the entire city of Denver is gentrified though and Cherry Creek is ideally positioned to take advantage.

The Plaza has an extremely wealthy area immediately to the south and southwest but that tapers off on the Missouri side pretty quickly. Once you get further south, the plaza has to compete with 119th and 135th streets. On the north side, of the plaza, residential is intermittent with businesses and while there are pockets of wealthy and upper middle income, it's mixed in with lower middle income and that starts just a little further north of the plaza. On the east of the plaza, the area becomes low income pretty quickly. A lot of the lower and middle income people around the plaza might spend money at higher end clothing stores but I cannot see many spending Crate and Barrel type cash on an ugly end table or buying a $1500 picture for their wall. I think for those stores that sell purely discretionary items at a high cost, the Plaza demographics may not look all that great.

The Plaza's location has some big disadvantages due to the way KC evolved on the socio-economic map. Consequently, it really does need to be a destination location and to some extent it is for restaurants but less so for retail.

[mgsports]

Also have to compete with Bluhawk,Independence Center and so on future development that has an Outlet Mall. If it wants to get a chain then Mejier.

[Philacav]

If the Plaza's reputation as a high end retail center is on the rocks (and I'm just inferring from people's posts since I long ago moved away), then shouldn't Downtown Kansas City find ways to rejuvenate itself as a retail destination, and especially vying for unique high end retail that might draw people from a far distance, while continuing to pursue retail that would suit the growing residential population there? I felt the Plaza got too big and was kind of forced to take on roles it was not intended for in its original iteration, largely because Downtown was moribund and it provided an easy way to bring about "downtown"-like development wihtout the hard work of really rejuvenating the real downtown itself.

[GRID]

I think the idea that the plaza is upscale retail has come and gone. The plaza had a chance in the 90's but all the upscale retail went to Leawood and Overland Park.

Even Wolter's World mentions it:

https://youtu.be/B6B86zW9JPU?t=572

[mgsports]

Also to Legends.

[GRID]

There is nothing upscale about the legends.

[AlkaliAxel]

The Plaza doesn’t need gobs of high end retail. It’s a destination in itself. I grew up going to the Plaza in the 2010’s, when we haven’t had all the high end retail, and I love it. As long as it’s not sprouting dollar stores and McDonalds it’s always gonna be popular because of what it is.

[GRID]

I agree, just making a point.

Nothing wrong with Mcdonalds either. The one that was in Seville Square was great when it was there. So was the one in City Center Sq. KC no longer has urban Mcdonalds like that for some reason. You will find Mcdonalds like that in centers of the biggest cities of the world.

[CorneliusFB]

The Plaza has thrived for so long because it’s been allowed to evolve. It’s adapted to market changes while retaining its uniqueness. It will continue to be successful as long as it can continue to adapt to the changing whims of society. It isn’t just a shopping mall and it certainly shouldn’t be viewed as an untouchable museum. Treating it as such will certainly lead to its demise.

[earthling]

It's adapted in the wrong direction last few decades. Highwoods and Taubman have ignored the surrounding neighborhood, not seeking a few neighborhood amenities like it used to have. The next evolution needs to be more residential within Plaza boundaries, at least on top of existing parking garages. Taubman/Simon have been doing a little better mixed use with some of their properties but not very experienced, generic mall operation is their core biz. Would like to see them sell to a true urban mixed use developer/operator or sell in pieces.

[CorneliusFB]

Not discounting your suggestion, but the move away from the neighborhood focus started long before highwoods. Miller Nichols cemented that transition with a lot of his moves in the 80’s. Highwoods essentially bought a bunch of office buildings surrounding the equivalent of a shopping mall. I think their work on the former Saks and Seville Square spaces were a positive along with the Valencia stuff on 47th street.

[earthling]

Nichols at least maintained a market and/or pharmacy and recognized the surrounding neighborhood. Highwoods was mainly an office developer and wanted to tear down buildings for office but they did some nice investments/improvements too, like bricking sidewalks and the B&N/McCormick stretch, etc. They wanted to tear down Park Lane apts for office and IIRC Classic Cup building for office. They were a bit too much office oriented. Taubman is too much of a generic mall operator and is milking Plaza identity, Highwoods at least made significant investments.

Need a true mixed use urban operator/developer that also can attract a few high end retail. Agree with others it just needs to be a few unique to region. Add residential within, attract broader nightlife other than just restaurants and good time to convert Nichols Rd to pedestrian only with a real community Plaza gathering place.

[beautyfromashes]

The "market" is totally different than back then. Margins are so small for retail that it takes so many more customers to make a profit than even in the 80s. First, I'm not even sure if surrounding neighbors would spend more to shop at a pharmacy or grocery on the Plaza, and the margins would have to be SO much higher to cover higher costs. Maybe in the 50s you could charge a 50% margin and make a good profit on few customers, and they'd be fine to pay it because they didn't know of competitors pricing and there was no where else to get it. Now, if margins are 10%, you have to have 5x the customers to make the same profit. I'm not sure that's possible on the Plaza today.