Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Northeast, Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Fri Mar 11, 2022 1:04 pm
You can keep telling yourselves the Plaza’s designs & fountains etc don’t have any importance but no matter how many times you say it, it’s not true.
That's not much of an argument.
But if you're right, we should be able to demolish this church, Unity, and probably two dozen other buildings on the Plaza because they aren't Spanish. Orthodoxy is not interesting, and it's not even what the Plaza is, architecturally. Relevance comes from what's happening in those buildings (at the moment, not much). Architectural interest has degraded over the last 30 years because of the spate of large, newer buildings aiming for a Spanish style and winding up closer to PoMo. The Lockton building might be the worst of the lot, but it definitely checks all the Spanish tile and doodad boxes. If buildings had been allowed to simply reference the context in their own way, without having to tack tile on, the Plaza would be a lot better off.
If you look at the NPS's preservation guidelines, this proposed building is probably just fine, despite its shortcomings. Interesting that HKC always forgets the guideline that new buildings shouldn't attempt to mimic historic buildings.
Tile used well can really enhance a building. There is nothing wrong with some ornamental elements on a building. I've never bought into that modernist philosophy that shed all ornament just to create glass boxes.
Humans like texture, ornament, and decoration. That is why they still flock to places that maintain it, and didn't tear it all down.
There is no risk of Spanish architectural orthodoxy taking over Kansas City. We can afford a neighborhood of it. The Plaza is a small neighborhood in the wider context of the Metro area, and certainly KCMO's 300+ square miles.
I lived in Phoenix and I know tacky Spanish architecture which is basically stucco and a tile roof on a square box.
At this point, you have to consider the Plaza “faux-Spanish”, if that. Besides the corner towers, most all buildings have been bastardized in some way. The parking garage across from Panera, the Apple building, Jack Stack building which looks more country than Spanish, old Houston’s building, Shake Shack and Houston’s and TMobile facades. Putting some tan stucco and cheap colored tiles on a building does absolutely nothing. Pointless.
The plaza’s architecture is generally bad. A few of the original buildings are pretty high quality, and the giralda tower is a good building, but by and large it’s a lot of cheap stuff IMO
Walk on the street and turn your head from left to right?
It’s just an out of touch take. I understand that this is a development site so some people here get really nit-picky about things and start to miss the bigger picture. It happens all the time on here. But if you poll residents, hell even tourists, 90% or more are gonna say it’s great architecture and beautiful to walk by. And they’re right. No normal person thinks that in the slightest.
There is no doubt that there are low-quality buildings on the Plaza. They are what I'd call neutral wallflowers. But that's true in almost every neighborhood and city in the world. Not every building in New York, Madrid, London, Paris, and Rome are a striking example of architecture. Even in those places, you have the neutral buildings that essentially fill out the street wall and do little else. There are some pretty bland, ugly buildings in all the aforementioned cities.
If they are older structures, the National Trust for Historic Preservation often refers to these as "contributing" buildings in historic districts, and not the significant ones. What this means is that they are essentially the same age, but non-descript, non-historic structures. They are often protected not for being significant as much as removing them would break up the historic district in a way deemed harmful.
Still, that's no reason to not attempt to do better on the Plaza. It's in the interest of any owner or developer on the Plaza to attempt to construct high-quality pleasing buildings there. At the very least it's an investment that has shown proven long-term value. Remember that the Plaza is now 100 years old. Very few neighborhoods plotted out that long ago end up still being in relatively good condition--especially commercial districts.
The worst buildings were those that were done on the cheap. Almost all revival-type architecture done cheaply -- or at the wrong scale -- looks bad. It's often because they skimp on the detailing. There are certainly candidates for replacement on the Plaza.
If one wants a luxury district, you can't skimp on the details. Look at how old-money people build houses. They don't skimp on details. They also notice it in places that attempt luxury and fail.
If you have ever seen photos of the interiors of apartments in The Walnuts, you will see why rich people live there, and why they continue to live there even though the buildings are 93-years-old.
The biggest disappointment recently has been the Nordstrom replacement building. This could have been an opportunity to upgrade the parcel into mixed-use by ringing the top of the department store with apartments.
One of J.C. Nichols' design flaws with the Plaza for me has always been that apartments weren't added on top of retail store buildings from the beginning. It's like he became enamored with Spanish architecture and forgot to study how European cities really function.
Goonies wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 12:59 am
Prime has been a huge hit. That minigolf bar looks awesome and Chiefs Fit is a great gym. That part of plaza is doing great things. Once Macy's gets built I think the conversation about the plaza is going to change it definitely won't be on the decline anymore. That tower that's supposed to be built on Roanoke will only bring in more foot traffic too.
Kevin’s most recent article on a Dallas based chain going in the Jack Henry building being developed by Drake. It claims to be a One-in-a-market product, but with sinkers opening in the P&L this month I suppose we’ll get to see if there’s enough demand for both. Article linked below.
Good article, aside from the fact that it’s about 10 years too late.
FangKC wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:25 amAs empty storefronts increase, is the Country Club Plaza losing its appeal?
About two dozen empty storefronts line the Country Club Plaza.
Recent losses include such big-name brands as Michael Kors, Kate Spade and Brighton Collectibles. Local home décor and furnishings retailer RE: is about to go dark, leaving behind a 21,274-square-foot space at 4704 Wyandotte St. The former t.Loft space, which sits on a prime corner spot, hasn't been filled since the local eatery opted to not renew its lease in 2020 because of business challenges.
"As an owner, I've never been more worried about the Plaza," Drake Development LLC President Matt Pennington said. "You see all the big names going away. It's going to have a domino effect because big names draw in big names. Additional people will fall out. ... I'm passionate about this. I'm living it. I'm breathing it every day, and it's tough to watch."
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"If you keep walking by empty storefronts to go from one store that you love to the next store that you love, or to the next restaurant, you kind of get this sense that the area is in decline," Enders said. "The same goes for when you see a lot of local tenants come in and you see someone who comes in seasonally, and then they're gone the next season. It creates a little bit of confusion. It also casts local retail in a bad light sometimes because a customer might think that local retailers aren't sophisticated enough to operate at a high enough level to stay in business.
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The Plaza is challenged with older buildings, and Taubman Centers and Macerich inherited deferred maintenance when they took over, Taubman said. Although they've tackled some of it, there's more to do, he said.
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The Plaza needs to adapt to the marketplace and customers, and it needs some fresh and exclusive tenants, he said. As the sports and convention businesses pick back up, out-of-towners will be looking for tenants they can't find at home.
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In today's retail environment, the Plaza is shackled with too many retail spaces. It needs a new vision and the ability to add more residential living to drive activity and attract relevant tenants, he said. Height restrictions, the amount of parking and the Plaza's density should be re-evaluated against current and future needs.
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One of the most anticipated new tenants is Nordstrom, which has said it will relocate from Oak Park Mall in Overland Park to the Plaza at 4720 Jefferson St. Construction started in 2019, and Nordstrom originally planned to open the 122,000-square-foot store in 2021. The timeline has since been pushed back to the fall of 2023. According to Taubman, Nordstrom remains on track to open.
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The Plaza is currently owned by two separate real estate firms: Macerich, a real estate investment trust, based in California, and Taubman Centers, based in Michigan.
“The disconnect is between two and three different companies, and each part of that company is doing a different portion, and the arms and legs are not working together,” Huff said.
Huff also said that the Plaza management has made cuts to weekend maintenance staff, which has negatively impacted business.
Goonies wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:07 pm
This is all overblown IMO
Agreed. Took a long walk this afternoon and evening. Went all through the plaza. Jam packed with people, granted it was a really nice day. Clearly still a neighborhood/district that is going to attract the masses. Given that, there is just no way the incentives aren't there for the plaza to reform itself whether that means current ownership changing strategy or ownership changing/breaking it up. National retail brands don't have the same cachet as 10-20 years ago. B&M retail across the board is on its knees. But with the plaza the inherent value is going to provide the motivation to make something work there. Failing to do it will mean losing out on too much money. The status of the plaza is one of the last things I sweat about in this town.
We were there on Saturday when it was still cold around noon. Lots of people were out, parking lots were full and stores seemed to be doing pretty good business (at least the ones we were in}. Definitely a lot of out of towners from the tournament.
There are signs though the latest owners are milking it, not putting the investment into Plaza that it deserves - even before pandemic. Perhaps a product of some internal management issues and lack of available capital. Several tenants apparently not happy with how Plaza is now managed.
Another reason a more ideal owner for Plaza would be a diverse urbane mixed-use developer/operator/curator that has ties to high end retail rather than a single industry generic mall operator that lacks diversity in troubled times and therefore less able to adapt.
I went to eat dinner on the Plaza last night and STILL can't believe how nasty the stairwells are for the older parking garages - crumbling concrete stairs, rusted railings, God knows what dripped on the walls and the floors. And simple coat of paint would go a long way.
Highwoods did a much better job taking care of the Plaza (a notable general improvement/investment was converting sidewalks to brick) but they were too driven to turn it into an office district and reduce residential rather than add (and they barely acknowledged the surrounding neighborhood). Taubman hasn't brought anything to bump up Plaza to another level, just milking what it has while not taking care of it.
They apparently feel they don't have to because the crowds will come anyway - aka, milking.
earthling wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:44 am
Highwoods did a much better job taking care of the Plaza (a notable general improvement/investment was converting sidewalks to brick) but they were too driven to turn it into an office district and reduce residential rather than add (and they barely acknowledged the surrounding neighborhood). Taubman hasn't brought anything to bump up Plaza to another level, just milking what it has while not taking care of it.
They apparently feel they don't have to because the crowds will come anyway - aka, milking.
As long as the crowds spend money. I was at the Plaza a couple of days ago for the first time in a long time. I was surprised at how crowded it was on a weekday in March. The empty storefronts are lamentable but, to be honest, the vast majority of space is still being leased so they are not as noticeable as I expected. I didn't notice a lack of security or maintenance and the activity and construction cranes nearby indicate the area is still a draw and the Plaza has a lot of potential if it's managed well. Increasing and upgrading the density in the surrounding area is critical because it's the way KC and the plaza area specifically can increase population and wealth while being landlocked.
