Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

[Anthony_Hugo98]

It was ~$2 million per mile pre-covid if the ground was already graded. There are OCS - Diesel or Battery Hybrids that could run as a streetcar in the city and normal train on Rock Island row. New Jersey has one of these systems that runs on Blvds, 2 land streets, and dedicated ROW.

I'm talking about using the existing Rock Island ROW that still has tracks on it from wherever it leaves the KC Terminal (Wilson ave and Bennington Ave?) tracks to TSC. The tracks are still there, they just need to be rehabbed.

Then use existing stock, like maybe Amtrack engines and commuter coaches from other cities.

Any tracks on the county owned ROW needs to be rebuilt. Bridges are in good condition but single tracked.

If Amtrak replaces their fleet before 2026, could buy their old vehicles. Issue is getting into downtown, you’d need to run a lot of trains through the junctions into RM. would be a long trip and I doubt freight would approve.

Why go to RM when we have a fully functional train station already central to city?

[flyingember]

I'm talking about using the existing Rock Island ROW that still has tracks on it from wherever it leaves the KC Terminal (Wilson ave and Bennington Ave?) tracks to TSC. The tracks are still there, they just need to be rehabbed.

Then use existing stock, like maybe Amtrack engines and commuter coaches from other cities.

Any tracks on the county owned ROW needs to be rebuilt. Bridges are in good condition but single tracked.

If Amtrak replaces their fleet before 2026, could buy their old vehicles. Issue is getting into downtown, you’d need to run a lot of trains through the junctions into RM. would be a long trip and I doubt freight would approve.

Why go to RM when we have a fully functional train station already central to city?

When the county was looking into this years ago the Terminal RR said that they need a fourth track to support commuter rail. This meant physically widening the trench to maintain track spacing.

[normalthings]

Any tracks on the county owned ROW needs to be rebuilt. Bridges are in good condition but single tracked.

If Amtrak replaces their fleet before 2026, could buy their old vehicles. Issue is getting into downtown, you’d need to run a lot of trains through the junctions into RM. would be a long trip and I doubt freight would approve.

Why go to RM when we have a fully functional train station already central to city?

When the county was looking into this years ago the Terminal RR said that they need a fourth track to support commuter rail. This meant physically widening the trench to maintain track spacing.

It was $1 billion to expand the trench + build a junction and go to Union Station or $200-300 million to build flyovers to get into RM

[shinatoo]

I'm talking about using the existing Rock Island ROW that still has tracks on it from wherever it leaves the KC Terminal (Wilson ave and Bennington Ave?) tracks to TSC. The tracks are still there, they just need to be rehabbed.

Then use existing stock, like maybe Amtrack engines and commuter coaches from other cities.

Any tracks on the county owned ROW needs to be rebuilt. Bridges are in good condition but single tracked.

If Amtrak replaces their fleet before 2026, could buy their old vehicles. Issue is getting into downtown, you’d need to run a lot of trains through the junctions into RM. would be a long trip and I doubt freight would approve.

Why go to RM when we have a fully functional train station already central to city?

That's what I was thinking. I believe the RIT tracks take a hard turn toward Union station and aren't even at the same grade as the ones that go to the river market.

Plus I'm just talking about something temporary to support the World Cup.

[normalthings]

That's what I was thinking. I believe the RIT tracks take a hard turn toward Union station and aren't even at the same grade as the ones that go to the river market.

Plus I'm just talking about something temporary to support the World Cup.

No a junction would have to be build to serve US and the railroads can't spare the kind of capacity needed to transport that many people

[flyingember]

On the scale of the train we would need to fund and build an entire regional plan all at once to scratch the surface of the demand.

I saw something that described the transportation demand for World Cup as needing to move everyone out of town in ten hours all in a giant one way movement. The same where everyone is entering town all at once. That FIFA expects to empty the city of everyone who arrives within ten hours.

A train to Union Station is so small on the scale of the event that it's like planning to move one hotel to the game when we need a plan to move people between cities.

Qatar is going to have 1100 electric busses for the World Cup just as one piece of the puzzle for next year.

Arrowhead holds 76,000. Walmart left KC when they reached 8000 people at their convention, they couldn't find enough rooms and were already 25 miles away from downtown. That's Olathe, so there isn't enough rooms for 8000 people in the entire city.

KC would be using hotel rooms in St. Louis and people will be coming by coach bus to the game intercity the same day. There will be a mass exodus from town on top of the Fan Fests in each city drawing thousands to come into the city who can't get a ticket.

We're talking the scale of temporary airport terminals, taking road lanes away to serve as express bus routes and massive car parks on the edge of the city.

[TheLastGentleman]

God we need to nationalize rail or SOMETHING so that we can actually make use of this infastructure. Maybe we can even get this crap to stop happening:

https://apnews.com/article/amtrak-crash ... eb23b49cef

[normalthings]

There isnt a junction that connects Rock Island with Union Station trench. So you need to build a junction and you need additional capacity in the trench. A nationalized rail network would still be capacity constrained at this trench. A national rail network, like the rail network that exists today would not prioritize a onetime local event over the national freight system. Not really sure why it was relavent for you to bring up.

44 Metra trains (10 cars * 160 passangers per) would be needed to shuttle Arrowhead to Union Station each way (88 total). IIRC that is almost the entire daily trench capacity. Its kind of wild to think about how big of a peak load an Arrowhead event is. This is starting to get me to think that downtown baseball may not be such a great idea (assuming it would actually draw more than Sprint Center does).

The other downside to commuter rail into downtown is that there is really no way to serve people once you pass 435. BRT, LRT, or tram train would let you pick up suburban travelers AND serve the urban core. Commuter Rail to the east isnt doable but maybe it makes sense to Olathe.

From 2013:

The report estimated taking commuter rail from Interstate 435 to Union Station will cost as much as $1.16 billion whereas taking it from I-435 to the River Market would only cost as much as $198 million.

[FangKC]

It's shocking to think that they ever processed 200 passenger trains a day out of Union Station.

[normalthings]

It's shocking to think that they ever processed 200 passenger trains a day out of Union Station.

There was once a 4th track in the trench. Was removed due to requirements for increased horizontal train separation and a shift from rail to truck based maintenance vehicles. I think the big costs in adding a new 4th track is the need to reconstruct all of the bridges and retaining walls alongside the trench.

The Union Station peak was close to 300 trains daily. Today, freight trains are much much longer. 2,000 ft back then vs 12,000 ft today. Precision Scheduled Railroading is pushing trains up to 18,000 feet.

[WoodDraw]

Does any other country run freight on their passenger lines?

[Anthony_Hugo98]

Does any other country run freight on their passenger lines?

I can speak to the fact that italy did, however, their freight traffic didn’t supersede passenger traffic. You’d regularly have a freight train run through while standing on a platform

[KCPowercat]

Wait I'm I detecting people are actually suggesting getting rail to TSC in time for the World Cup? Come on.

[Anthony_Hugo98]

Wait I'm I detecting people are actually suggesting getting rail to TSC in time for the World Cup? Come on.

China and the CCP built more high speed rail infrastructure in 10 years than the entire world has since the inception of high speed rail. Crazier things have happened

[KCPowercat]

There is 0.0% chance of rail going to TSC by 2026. We'll be hard pressed to do anything but a special bus run to accommodate.

[AlkaliAxel]

So, Union Central would need to be the central hub for light rail in KC?

That seems right to me. In Denver and DC, their union stations are the central hubs for their rail too.

[KCPowercat]

I believe Union Station is out for any central hub due to rail traffic east. Maybe a JoCo line would still end there. Anything from the east was going to come in an river market.

[beautyfromashes]

Wait I'm I detecting people are actually suggesting getting rail to TSC in time for the World Cup? Come on.

Yeah? Why not? These are the reasons you bid on a World Cup, if it’s awarded you’ll get every bickering party on board to show off the city/state. Republicans will agree to fund transportation because they want to look good to the world. Democrats will cut red tape. You have at least partial ROW for it with much less utilities to move than the streetcar. Time to go big.

[TheLastGentleman]

Republicans will agree to fund transportation because they want to look good to the world.

I’m not sure they’re super concerned about that anymore

[AlkaliAxel]

I believe Union Station is out for any central hub due to rail traffic east. Maybe a JoCo line would still end there. Anything from the east was going to come in an river market.

Can’t they expand Union to include another track or something? It’s such a perfect central location in the core I’d hate to see it go to waste.