Suburban vs Urban

[TagoMago]

Hello Forum,
                Long time lurker, first time post-er... I love this site, it has been a huge help to me.  I am writing a speech about the benefits of urban living.  I would be interested to hear why people prefer living in the city vs the suburbs.  (or vice-versa)  First, here is a little background on me: I grew up in the Brookside area, moved to the Plaza, moved downtown, got married and moved to the suburbs.  I have felt like I am dying a little inside ever since I moved to JoCo.  But then something weird happened, I started to get used to it and comfortable.  (this really freaked me out)  So, I have convinced my wife that we should move downtown.  (we are buying a loft in the garment district)  But I digress...I will be giving this speech for a class at JCCC.  My reasons for preferring downtown living are primarily subjective and a matter of taste. eg: I prefer and independent coffee house to starbucks, an independent bar to a chain type bar, a loft to cookie-cutter houses.  I don't think it will be effective to argue taste...so I am looking for more objective reasons.  I guess there is the less driving argument but  I feel like I am missing some obvious points here....any thoughts?

[Tosspot]

Advantages of urban locations:

• Ideally, one can be car free when a city is dense enough to support efficient and rapid mass transit, and this will save you much money on car payments, gas, and insurance
• You can walk many places and thus get more exercise by living in an urban area
• There is an actual, identifiable and tangible public realm in fully functioning urban areas, as oppposed to contemporary American suburbia where the idea of public space and public domain is virtually non-existent.
• You don't need as much personal living space in an urban area because the public areas in a thriving and densely built neighborhood can substitute for private personal dwelling space.
• Besides just being able to walk places, in an urban area there usually actual places worth walking to, as opposed to isolated suburban subdivisions where the only people walking are doing so to get exercise

[Gladstoner]

Besides just being able to walk places, in an urban area there usually actual places worth walking to, as opposed to isolated suburban subdivisions where the only people walking are doing so to get exercise

Walking for excercise in a boring area eventually becomes tedious. I can attest to that. A typical regimen would last only a month or so before apathy set in. My wish, in the past at least, has been to live somewhere like Denver or Moab, UT where there are many nearby scenic areas with hiking trails. An interesting urban environment would work just as well.

[TagoMago]

Thanks Tosspot, those are solid points!  I will try to find some studies about public spaces vs. Suburban isolation and the effects on mental health.  I guess my concen with the less-driving, health benefit argument is that those pro-suburbia could argue that the quality of the air is potentially worse in the city.  But, if you live in a pedestrian-friendly city, you could live without a car, walk more, save money, lower your risk of heart-disease and not contribute as much to the air-quality problem...

[aknowledgeableperson]

Take your speech and divide it into two sections.
One section for singles, married no children, and empty nestors.  Plus and minus for both urban vs suburban.

The second section for families with children.  Plus and minus for both urban vs suburban.

[bahua]

If/when I get children I will have no qualms whatsoever about living in the city. Suburban life is not for me, and if I can help it, I don't want my kids growing up in that kind of environment either.

So, for me, single, married, with kids, or with an empty nest, the city is the place for me, in all cases.

[bbqboy]

I'm not sure you can link Chain Businesses and Surburbia.  Starbuck's can be just as insidious in intense Urban areas. On the other hand, you have lots of aging strip malls in Surburbia  that seem to be prime places for tenants starting out on their independent business journey, whether as restauranteurs, bike shop owners, or what have you.

[aknowledgeableperson]

If/when I get children I will have no qualms whatsoever about living in the city. Suburban life is not for me, and if I can help it, I don't want my kids growing up in that kind of environment either.

So, for me, single, married, with kids, or with an empty nest, the city is the place for me, in all cases.

More power to you.  I hope that if you do have kids that the KCMO SD has better results for education than they do now.  Or are you planning on private schools?

[Tosspot]

Is it a sound proposition to say that the cost of private schooling for KCMO residents is at least somewhat offset by the lower real estate prices that arise from a lousy public school district?

[nota]

One thing I have as a suburbanite that you city bigots don't have is a beautiful view of the skyline from anyplace I want to enter the city from. If you keep yourself bottled up in the concrete canyons, you never get to see it.

[bahua]

Private schools. I wouldn't send my kids to a public school, even in the best of areas.

If you're doing well, financially, i see no reason to chance your children's education on public schools.

[LenexatoKCMO]

One thing I have as a suburbanite that you city bigots don't have is a beautiful view of the skyline from anyplace I want to enter the city from. If you keep yourself bottled up in the concrete canyons, you never get to see it.

Yeah your right - but I don't have to get in the car and drive to see a view like that- I look out my living room window instead.  Outside of the Wallstreet Tower, very little of the downtown residential is in the "canyons" and you would be amazed at just how spectacular the views are in most of the buildings. 

[warwickland]

One thing I have as a suburbanite that you city bigots don't have is a beautiful view of the skyline from anyplace I want to enter the city from. If you keep yourself bottled up in the concrete canyons, you never get to see it.

theres nothing bottled up about having an entire city as your playground. the views around this city are great. i remember staring at nothing but white siding growing up in the exurbs. i am sure that there are exceptions, but i doubt that its easy to beat the view from the top of 909 walnut.

careful about calling people who live in the city bigots for any reason nota, no offense.

[Tosspot]

cough*ignore button* cough

[paisstat]

One thing to remember about the poor performance record of the KCMO public school system is that much of the blame falls on the teacher and the administrators, when in actuality the parents and home life of the child is a huge factor and usually the determining factor.  A child who has a proactive parent or parents at home can do very well in KCMO public schools or any public school in the country.  This is something that is almost never mentioned or discussed when the issue of our lousy public schools is brought up.

[bahua]

It isn't brought up, because the root of that is poverty, and that's a problem that it seems the city has given up trying to solve.

[Tosspot]

It isn't brought up, because the root of that is poverty, and that's a problem that it seems the city has given up trying to solve.

And therein the city planning department ends up getting saddled with "advocacy planning" initiatives. It's a shame such needs ever arise in the first place.

[staubio]

cough*ignore button* cough

Yes, use it, warwick!  Let me sum up what you'll miss:

You're a bigot
Critters, critters, critters
Zona Rosa isn't doing well.

Okay, now push that ignore button, you're caught up for life.

[TagoMago]

"I'm not sure you can link Chain Businesses and Suburbia"
...That may be true to the extent that Starbucks is everywhere but I still believe (with no facts to support it) that one would have more independent/ unique options in the city than in the burbs.  Again, this comes back to aesthetics, and taste.  For me (evidently a city "bigot") the problem with living in JoCo has been that I could be in any suburb in the US and see the same stores, bars etc...  I also prefer: cup and saucer, the brick, the quaff, le fou frog etc to starbucks, fox and hound, and the elephant bar... Plus, I like to drink, it will be great to be able to walk to bars

re: raising a family and schools- the quality of public schools is a legitimate question for some (not me)
but if I were to send my (fictitious) child to a Blue Valley school, I would be worried that they would be growing up in a white/christian/ upper-class bubble, I have seen first hand how dangerous this can be to young impressionable minds

re: the view driving into the city vs. living in the city...I don't think this is even a contest, with very few exceptions, in general, the view has to be better in the loop than the burbs unless you enjoy a view of a Cull-DE-sac

[GRID]

I have a serious question though.  You lived in Brookside, Plaza, Downtown, yet chose JoCo as the "suburb" to move to?  Why not the Northland where, as nota says, you can at least see the skyline from much of it and access the city much quicker?  Why not Lee's Summit where there are lakes and such, I mean if you are gonna live in the burbs, may as well live in burbs with a more vibrant outdoor and recreational scene.  I assume you work out there or your wife does?  Why not at least stay in MO and Jackson or Clay or Platte or KCMO where you can vote on important issues that effect the metro and then have a vested interest in the city you grew up in?

Serious question.

As far as your question.  I am in the same boat, only I have kids.  We moved out of KCMO because east jax is closer to the wife's family.  Our last home was in the Waldo area.  I REALLY wanted to buy in Brookside and still to this day regret that we didn't because homes have doubled in value since then, about 4 years ago.  I still think we should have stayed in Brookside, we just didn't think we could afford a brookside home and private school.  Looking back, we could have...and should have.  My second choice was the Northland so we could at least stay in KCMO and I just like the Northland and think it has a lot of potential.  That just didn't work out, so now we too are settled in out here.

BS/LS is nice, it's ok.  But having lived out here now for several years, I still don't see what others see in suburban living. 

The shopping?  It's the same.  Actually we had more convenient choices in Waldo because you could go one way and be in JoCo and the other and be in the Plaza/Midtown.

The traffic?  Umm, no.  There is so much more traffic out here and on the interstates then I ever dealt with on Holmes, Ward Pkwy or Wornall.  I even rode my bike to the plaza to work or even downtown.  I also took the bus often and walked places more often.  Express buses out here are crowded, too few and are very limited.  I miss the 5:10 evening bus and I'm screwed.  So I rarely take it anymore.

Schools?  Awesome schools out here, but personally, suburban schools are a bit overrated.  I think a private school or "good" public school that offers more divercity etc would be better.

Built environment?  God, that is the worst part.  I love my home, but still dream of a victorian in the city.

There is nothing out here, or an any suburb, except best buys and lowes.

But, as I always say, it's what you make of it and we continue to "live" in the city, we really do.  I will never comprehend how people live out here and never leave.  That is just bizarre to me.  We are in the city all the time, none stop.  We are also in other suburban areas all the time, just for a change of scenery when we do shop or dine etc.

I can't wait to move back to KCMO, we are looking.  At least the northland.

But we are in the extreme minority out here, everybody out here is happy staying put.  We do all the sports, the football, the baseball and all the other parents we talk to act like they never go west of I-470.  They don't have the anti KCMO attitude that JoCo has, but they are in there own little word.

Everybody's nice, they are great people, but my kids know more about KC than just about any adult I have met out here so far.

I really don't understand it and I really don't understand how single or married people with no kids do it.  That is just insane to me.

The neighbors do ask questions when I put KCMO yards signs in my yard.  I have to edit them though.  "Spread the word", "tell your co-workers" Vote yes for light rail, or vote yes for a new arena.  I voted on KCMO till recenlty though.  Now I just vote on school stuff and  well, that's about it.  Every few month we vote for a school bond...