Katz on Main

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Northeast, Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
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Chris Stritzel
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Re: Katz on Main

Post by Chris Stritzel »

earthling wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:11 pm
Might as well just make everything in the building publicly accessible at this point.
Only a portion if requesting incentives but an entire public use project would work fine for this building too if someone wealthy would step up.

This might come across as a shock but it is possible to build market rate units without incentives, especially along something as highly desirable as all amenities along streetcar. Any reasonably functional area can build market rate w/out incentives elsewhere.

KC needs to transition away from wide open incentives. You are saying that developers won't build at all unless there are incentives they like. That's a problem if KC can still only get things done unless there are extra incentives. In areas that need a boost sure, but the streetcar line is in itself the boost needed for that stretch. Piling on incentives just to get things done is a terrible precedent to set. Actually it's a bad habit already established that needs more scrutiny and now that's in play. Let the market play out w/out incentives except in areas/situations that truly need the boost. Should incentives be used to save the Plaza church for an otherwise private project?
The incentive package for the Katz project shouldn't have been as big as it was requested for and the timeframe should've been shorter. Without the streetcar currently in operation in the area, you wouldn't be able to fetch the same rent as you could if the Streetcar was already in operation. A tax abatement period of no more than 5 years for this project would've likely been a better scenario since that would cover the construction period of both the development and streetcar and allow the building to fill up.

And I'm not saying that developers won't build unless there are incentives they like. What I'm saying is that not all developers can afford to develop without incentives at this point in time. In a couple years maybe, but not right now. In the case of Katz, I put what I thought should've happened in the post above. Additionally, for Katz, even a tax abatement here for the period requested would've still resulted in tax revenue going to the City of KC whereas the property right now contributes $0.

As for the Plaza Church, to me, that's a much different situation. The Plaza, despite losing tenants in the shopping area, is still doing relatively well from my observations. Therefore, it doesn't qualify for incentives like the 39th/Main/Westport intersection would, only those incentives shouldn't be greater than a 50% tax abatement for 10 years or the duration of the streetcar's construction, whichever is shorter.

Incentives are a controversial issue as-is, and will continue to be. It's just the way things are.
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Re: Katz on Main

Post by earthling »

^I understand and appreciate those points. Stepping back at a higher level, I also understand the distaste to provide incentives for a popular historical icon and limit its use mostly for luxury leaning private use.
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Critical_Mass
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Re: Katz on Main

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All I know is the Westly on Broadway owner (OPUS?) is probably thrilled this potential competition for tenants has died. Rents can now be raised!
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Re: Katz on Main

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"Luxury" doesn't hardly mean anything. It's just marketing. Everything new = luxury.
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DaveKCMO
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Re: Katz on Main

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alejandro46 wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:23 am "Luxury" doesn't hardly mean anything. It's just marketing. Everything new = luxury.
Yes. I bought a "luxury" condo that's full of builder-grade materials and no amenities. :roll:
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Katz on Main

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I was trying to explain to someone that just because a development touts itself as “luxury”, that doesn’t actually mean it’s luxury. Usually all it means is that it’s a new development
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Re: Katz on Main

Post by earthling »

Will rephrase...
earthling wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:33 pm Stepping back at a higher level, I also understand the distaste to provide incentives for a popular historical icon and limit its use mostly for market rate private use.
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Re: Katz on Main

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Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:39 am I was trying to explain to someone that just because a development touts itself as “luxury”, that doesn’t actually mean it’s luxury. Usually all it means is that it’s a new development
I was agreeing with you. Should have added /s/.
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Re: Katz on Main

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earthling wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:48 am Will rephrase...
earthling wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:33 pm Stepping back at a higher level, I also understand the distaste to provide incentives for a popular historical icon and limit its use mostly for market rate private use.
This is easily the biggest piece of the puzzle.

I'm not certain the public should necessarily have access, but why not a public stake?

The city owns the W&R building and that came with big incentives. Why can't more buildings come with something similar where the city gains an equity stake in the building for longer incentive terms?
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Katz on Main

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DaveKCMO wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:53 am
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:39 am I was trying to explain to someone that just because a development touts itself as “luxury”, that doesn’t actually mean it’s luxury. Usually all it means is that it’s a new development
I was agreeing with you. Should have added /s/.
Shit, my bad Dave :lol: I hate figuring out sarcasm online sometimes
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Re: Katz on Main

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flyingember wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:06 pm
earthling wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:48 am Will rephrase...
earthling wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:33 pm Stepping back at a higher level, I also understand the distaste to provide incentives for a popular historical icon and limit its use mostly for market rate private use.
This is easily the biggest piece of the puzzle.

I'm not certain the public should necessarily have access, but why not a public stake?

The city owns the W&R building and that came with big incentives. Why can't more buildings come with something similar where the city gains an equity stake in the building for longer incentive terms?
I believe the City does own the land under the Power & Light District, and Cordish owns the buildings.

It would seem to me the City has the ability to create these types of situations. It could possibly purchase historic buildings and retain ownership of the land under them. Developers could then build or renovate any building on that land. With the City controlling the land, it would give the City leverage protecting the historic building from demolition -- at least without the City's input.

The City did swoop in an buy the Empire / Mainstreet Theater from Executive Hills after they made moves to demolish it. I believe the CIty still owns the land under the theater, and Cordish controls the building itself.

Someone with experience with City legal entities and partnerships might want to pipe in on this.

https://maps.kcmo.org/apps/parcelviewer/
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alejandro46
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Re: Katz on Main

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Good job, TIF Watch. Should be renamed Wrecking Ball Watch. 3 years to find a development proposal or they propose to demo it. Probably want to get permit in before it is tied up in some kind of Historic Preservation fight.
Katz Drug Store owner hopes to trigger the development clock with demolition request
https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... _source=st
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Katz on Main

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“Someone else will develop it and save Katz, don’t worry, they won’t need incentives anyways, the streetcar is incentive enough”. This council, the “Tif Watch” Facebook group, and the multiple neighborhood communities involved in killing this project are so damned ignorant. In the words of the joker I guess? “You get what you Fu$@!*# deserve.”
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Re: Katz on Main

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Interesting that you'd put 100% blame on TIF watchers with 0 blame to owner making threats to tear down. If TIF never exists and owner buys a locally valued building just to tear it down you'd think nothing of it? That's pretty bottom of barrel as it gets.
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Re: Katz on Main

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earthling wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:05 pm Interesting that you'd put 100% blame on TIF watchers with 0 blame to owner making threats to tear down. If TIF never exists and owner buys a locally valued building just to tear it down you'd think nothing of it? That's pretty bottom of barrel as it gets.
The property owner is going to do what they can to maximize value of the land.

They wanted to save the building. A developer came in with a compelling proposal to save the building and add significant residents in exchange for a tax abatement.

Said abatement was rejected by the revised request from the council for 'public parking' and I believe 1/3 of the years requested for tax abatements. There was simply a difference in valuation between the council and developer in making the numbers work and so the "locally valued" building was apparently not valued enough to be awared an abatement. Unless some other developer comes forward to make the numbers work with minimal/no abatement, I won't lose sleep if it's torn down and something like your traditional 2+5 apartments are built. More infill and more residents means more tax revenue. Sucks, sure, but it's an old drug store. People aren't gonna be havingTIFs for CVS' in 50 years. I don't "blame" TIF KC, I mean they got what they want. No TIF, so no development. So maybe wrecking ball.
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Re: Katz on Main

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Goonies wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:07 pm These dudes love welfare for rich people. Its really strange.
I think they liked the WIN-WIN scenario of adding apartment homes to the supply during a housing crisis while simultaneously saving a threatened historic building
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Re: Katz on Main

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Goonies wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:07 pm
earthling wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:05 pm Interesting that you'd put 100% blame on TIF watchers with 0 blame to owner making threats to tear down. If TIF never exists and owner buys a locally valued building just to tear it down you'd think nothing of it? That's pretty bottom of barrel as it gets.
These dudes love welfare for rich people. Its really strange.
These dudes don't understand how TIF works, but thanks for your input. Since there is no "welfare" / TIF here, enjoy the surface parking lot coming at you 2024.
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Re: Katz on Main

Post by earthling »

Owner could do a more honorable thing especially considering the profile of building, such as putting it up for sale. But because they didn't get aid they want, tearing it down is what TIF watchers deserve? This appears to be about spite and threats. Keep trying...
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Re: Katz on Main

Post by chaglang »

The article says that the intent is to spur the process, either with LuxLiving or someone else. If the city's project analysis that led to the 10 year abatement is correct, someone should step up in the next 3 years. Remember, LL was not the only group interested in preserving/redeveloping this building. If no one gets a project together, then the council should know that they need to look at a higher incentives package. The only news here is the 3 year window.
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Re: Katz on Main

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With the momentum going on in KC and the momentum of streetcar, hopefully someone with deeper pockets than LuxLiving/lenders will buy and do the right thing w/out incentives. Or incentives are appropriately used with the building having more public function rather than nearly entirely private market rate use.
Last edited by earthling on Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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