KCRag Forum

staubio wrote: I know that the stimulus is targeting "shovel-ready" projects but it seems like several of those listed on the city's Christmas list have outstanding design elements.

I don't think the city's list is entirely realistic either.

dangerboy wrote: I don't think the city's list is entirely realistic either.

So we're potentially screwing ourselves on these opportunities by not having enough projects on the shelf waiting to be funded.

In one way, yes.  At the same time given all of the governments with hands out begging for funds it is very likely that this area would not receive all that much.  At least enough to fund everything.

Columbus is making it a priority and think they can get 200 million from the stimulus plan to build a LRT starter line.

While KC will probably apply for money to remodel city hall and add bike trails in Platte County…..


http://www.masstransitmag.com/publicati ... &pageNum=1

GRID wrote: Columbus is making it a priority and think they can get 200 million from the stimulus plan to build a LRT starter line.

While KC will probably apply for money to remodel city hall and add bike trails in Platte County…..


http://www.masstransitmag.com/publicati ... &pageNum=1

Interesting that they could beat larger Cincinnati to the punch in building rail transit. Too bad Cincy didn't use those tunnels they dug.

marc has compiled a list of about a thousand projects.  they are on the marc website, organized by project sponsor:
http://www.marc.org/transportation/stim ... ojects.asp

you can enter your comments about any of them.

staubio wrote: Interesting that they could beat larger Cincinnati to the punch in building rail transit. Too bad Cincy didn't use those tunnels they dug.

Columbus has passed Cincy in population and is now the biggest city in Ohio. Their strategy of getting most of the suburban areas into the central city limits is paying off...

dangerboy wrote: Columbus has passed Cincy in population and is now the biggest city in Ohio. Their strategy of getting most of the suburban areas into the central city limits is paying off...

I was referring to metro population, where Columbus is third, but that certainly is interesting that the third largest metro has the largest in-city population.

Didn't Indy do the same thing?

Didn't KC do the same thing?

KC, Indy and Columbus city propers all have much more suburban area than 'city' - all are well over 200 sq. miles.  Indy is larger than KC in area. 

Yea, I lived in Columbus for awhile, and they went annex-crazy for awhile, much like KC did. Also, most everyone that lives there works for either the state government, the university, or the insurance business, all of which are pretty close to the center of the city.

ignatius wrote: KC, Indy and Columbus city propers all have much more suburban area than 'city' - all are well over 200 sq. miles.  Indy is larger than KC in area. 

There are many others as well.  San Antonio, Jacksonville, Houston, Louisville...

But all the cities listed above have most, if not all of their major wealthy "suburbs" within the city limits and only Louisville has a state line to deal with and it's a non-issue.  Only KCMO saw nearly all growth "sprawl" occur in the suburbs (both MO & KS) while all that land that KCMO annexed stayed vacant.

It's quite an accomplishment to have a city of 315 square miles that is half open land that takes up nearly half the metro area within 20 miles of downtown and STILL lose a ton of people in the 80's-90's.

Nothing says FAIL more than that.  If that doesn’t say KCMO hit rock bottom, I don’t know what does.

  out of curiosity, Grid, what % of the annexed Northland chunks of KCMO is finally becoming (or has been) developed? 

  I was never aware that the cities you mentioned, and perhaps others as well, had managed to annex even many of their most wealthy suburbs...what a massive leg up on the competition (i.e. KCMO, StL, Detroit, etc).  How was it ever possible to annex small, wealthy surrounding cities in places like that?

rxlexi wrote:   out of curiosity, Grid, what % of the annexed Northland chunks of KCMO is finally becoming (or has been) developed? 

  I was never aware that the cities you mentioned, and perhaps others as well, had managed to annex even many of their most wealthy suburbs...what a massive leg up on the competition (i.e. KCMO, StL, Detroit, etc).  How was it ever possible to annex small, wealthy surrounding cities in places like that?

KCMO has about 1/3 of the northland developed or set aside for other uses (KCI, Parks etc).

Even though there have been some cities that have annexed or merged with developed suburbs such as Louisville, most of the suburban development I'm talking about occurred after the city annexed the land.

Houston, San Antonio, Indianapolis, Jacksonville etc.

The difference is mostly geography.

KCMO could only annex in a north/south linear way so all the suburban development was able to escape KCMO for suburbs in JoCo and JaCo.

While Indy or San Antonio, you have to go 25 miles from the city to unincorporated areas or small towns far from the city so most of the development simply occurred in the city limits, be it suburban or urban.

Plus in those cities, you had less to gain by moving to the suburbs while in KC you had a lot to gain, especially if you moved to the KS suburbs because you could avoid many urban type taxes and the threat of school desegregation which even hurt the MO suburbs.

If KC were able to annex for 20 miles in every direction including KS, it probably would have developed just like these other cities have.

But the way things were going, it wouldn't have mattered if KCMO had annexed the Northland and the far east and south sides or not.  The school problems, the south and southeast path of white and black flight and the complications of not being able to compete with JoCo would have probably played out the same way had Liberty and Lee's Summit had all the land that KCMO has today.

A lot of things didn't work in KCMO's favor.  But in the long run, I think the city's annexation will probably pay off.

GRID wrote: But the way things were going, it wouldn't have mattered if KCMO had annexed the Northland and the far east and south sides or not.  The school problems, the south and southeast path of white and black flight and the complications of not being able to compete with JoCo would have probably played out the same way had Liberty and Lee's Summit had all the land that KCMO has today.

A lot of things didn't work in KCMO's favor.  But in the long run, I think the city's annexation will probably pay off.

So very true.  KCMO was in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation with regards to the annexations.  Do you want KCMO to have control over the area and its development or do you want Independence, Raytown, Grandview, Lees' Summit, NKC, Gladstone, Riverside, Parkville, etc. control those areas.  Another reason why it has taken the undeveloped areas so long to develop was the failure of KCMO to build roads and water and sewer lines before development in order to encourage development, much like JoCo did.  Delaying those constructions just made the delayed construction costs higher.  And don't forget that large portion of land that was held by a church in Clay County that has not been developed until lately.  Finally, it just wasn't that easy to commute from the Northland to downtown for a job like it was from JoCo.

while i'm not a geographer, a couple of factors that have shaped development in the kansas city region are topography and prevailing winds. 

development north of the river has been and will continue to be challenged due to rugged topography, a remnant of the last ice age.  development in johnson county, in contrast, is aided by the gently rolling topography of the uplands between turkey creek and the blue river.

early development to the south / southwest was further enhanced by its being upwind from the unpleasant aromas wafting from the stockyards until the late 50s or 60s.

back to the subject of this thread, the ata's stimulus project list is pretty uninspired, in my opinion.  it  looks like it originated in the minds of ata managers who seldom venture outside the "teal zone" at 18th and forest.  i expect the regional transit alliance to make some recommendations to the ata board.

enough wrote: back to the subject of this thread, the ata's stimulus project list is pretty uninspired, in my opinion.  it  looks like it originated in the minds of ata managers who seldom venture outside the "teal zone" at 18th and forest.  i expect the regional transit alliance to make some recommendations to the ata board.

bus tracking for all routes would be a good one and would certainly boost ridership for the demographic they claim to be targeting; the system CTA is using has proven very popular. i would also put a consolidated downtown transit hub on the list, as well as 24-hour dedicated bus lanes and upgrading traffic signals along all routes.

  can anyone explain why the RCP starter line has not been made the number one stimulus priority for the city, particularly by mayor Funkhouser and KCMO?  Funk has been pushing regional rail transit as one of his biggest issues for years, we have the route and technology essentially nailed down, and here is a potentially very real opportunity for federal funding from a transit friendly administration.  Can we not put together a powerful group to pitch this?  Or maybe it could be selling additional MAX lines all over the city? 

  This city needs an affordable and high-quality transit system in place in the core, and we have a chance to go to the Feds and say, hey, here's what we really want done, we can start tommorrow, we can combine construction with EPA required sewer improvements, etc.

  I fear fixed transit in the RCP has just absolutely dropped off the map in terms of KCMO, and really regional plans have as well.  Where is our uber-pro regional transit mayor right now?  We need massively improved transit yesterday, and it is frustrating to have seen the issue simply disappear especially in the face of massive federal infrastructure spending.  Whether or not it involves the Feds, I can't think of a better time to start constructing some type of RCP or regional transit system.