KCRag Forum

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 9:10 pm

WoodDraw wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 9:04 pm Could we run 5 at once, or would separation become an issue?

That's pushing the boundaries of our mixed traffic operation, but it's technically possible. The whole point of adding two was to up our "spare ratio", so it's unlikely that we would ever operate five for that reason alone.

For sure. Four seems optimal under the current set up.

Just curiosity

Will running four become more common or just for major events?

Collison on additional streetcar...
https://cityscenekc.com/new-kc-streetca ... into-town/

A 2017 survey found that 76 percent of the riders were metro residents and 24 percent visitors. Of those local riders, 38 percent lived downtown and almost half of them used the streetcar to get to their jobs.

Within the downtown transportation development district created to provide local funding for the streetcar, sales tax receipts have increased from $4 million in 2013 to a projected $6.5 million in 2019, a 60 percent increase. The line runs 2.2 miles between Union Station and the River Market.

KC Streetcar #805 is expected to be ready for passengers in early summer.

"Gerend said the addition of the two new streetcars will allow the Authority to create four-car trains for peak passenger periods"?

Think Dave said previously weekday lunch, first Friday, all day Saturday would have 4 car service on the reg.

grovester wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 9:38 am "Gerend said the addition of the two new streetcars will allow the Authority to create four-car trains for peak passenger periods"?

Ha.

No.

Four cars would operate during peak periods, which are: all day Saturday, weekday lunch (11-1), First Fridays, and other special events like Big 12. This will take effect when 806 is commissioned and is seasonal.

So a buddy of mine that lives in OKC said they are already expanding their 4.6 mile initial line and have ordered 2 more streetcars. I don't understand why our extensions are taking forever to materialize. Also their main 4.6 mile line cost $136M or so? Seems our 2.2 mile line cost at least that much and to expand to the Plaza is around $300M. Is it primarily due to topography?

I could see running five or six at the absolute busiest times like Big 12. I can see how this can't be sustained full time but having a plan to run more at the biggest events makes sense to me.

KC_JAYHAWK wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:16 am So a buddy of mine that lives in OKC said they are already expanding their 4.6 mile initial line and have ordered 2 more streetcars. I don't understand why our extensions are taking forever to materialize. Also their main 4.6 mile line cost $136M or so? Seems our 2.2 mile line cost at least that much and to expand to the Plaza is around $300M. Is it primarily due to topography?

I would guess that they have 4.6 track miles (versus actual linear miles, which is where KC's 2.2 comes in). We have something like 4.4 track miles and I believe our project cost was about $106M.

KC_JAYHAWK wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:16 am So a buddy of mine that lives in OKC said they are already expanding their 4.6 mile initial line and have ordered 2 more streetcars. I don't understand why our extensions are taking forever to materialize. Also their main 4.6 mile line cost $136M or so? Seems our 2.2 mile line cost at least that much and to expand to the Plaza is around $300M. Is it primarily due to topography?

Firstly, you're not comparing apples to oranges. Count track miles since theirs in a single track in a loop and ours is a back and forth + track to the service building for both

4.9 miles at $135 million = $5217 per foot
4.1 miles at $102 million = $4710 per foot. The double track portion is approx 1.6 miles, the loop is approx 0.35 miles.

Our line cost approximately 90% what theirs did

The big piece is funding. Back in 2009 they passed a regional transit tax called MAPS 3 to outright pay for projects with no debt. The tax lasted 7 years. It raised $777 million dollars that quickly. Their streetcar is paid in full. That means every penny in net income is available to expand the system.

https://www.okc.gov/government/maps-3/about-maps-3
https://www.okc.gov/government/maps-3/maps-history

Collison's article has been corrected.

flyingember wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:22 am I could see running five or six at the absolute busiest times like Big 12. I can see how this can't be sustained full time but having a plan to run more at the biggest events makes sense to me.

Not without significant changes in how traffic moves along the alignment.

KC_JAYHAWK wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:16 am So a buddy of mine that lives in OKC said they are already expanding their 4.6 mile initial line and have ordered 2 more streetcars. I don't understand why our extensions are taking forever to materialize. Also their main 4.6 mile line cost $136M or so? Seems our 2.2 mile line cost at least that much and to expand to the Plaza is around $300M. Is it primarily due to topography?

Similarly, Milwaukee is expanding their line soon after the initial roll out.

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:47 am

flyingember wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:22 am I could see running five or six at the absolute busiest times like Big 12. I can see how this can't be sustained full time but having a plan to run more at the biggest events makes sense to me.

Not without significant changes in how traffic moves along the alignment.

I picture having no car zones during the biggest events if that many need to be run. At some point there will be enough people coming downtown that the streetcar will be the preferred choice to having long lines of cars that make people late

At some point need to start proposing getting rid of parking along most of the line. Especially on snow days when there's a lot more poor parking, blocking streetcars.

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:47 am

flyingember wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:22 am I could see running five or six at the absolute busiest times like Big 12. I can see how this can't be sustained full time but having a plan to run more at the biggest events makes sense to me.

Not without significant changes in how traffic moves along the alignment.

Are higher maximum frequencies a benefit of center running?

normalthings wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 11:16 am

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:47 am

flyingember wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:22 am I could see running five or six at the absolute busiest times like Big 12. I can see how this can't be sustained full time but having a plan to run more at the biggest events makes sense to me.

Not without significant changes in how traffic moves along the alignment.

Are higher maximum frequencies a benefit of center running?

That would help, but downtown we see people blocking the box and track placement won't fix that.

KC_JAYHAWK wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:16 am So a buddy of mine that lives in OKC said they are already expanding their 4.6 mile initial line and have ordered 2 more streetcars. I don't understand why our extensions are taking forever to materialize. Also their main 4.6 mile line cost $136M or so? Seems our 2.2 mile line cost at least that much and to expand to the Plaza is around $300M. Is it primarily due to topography?

Think they had both phases approved at once.

Based on their ridership numbers it looks like they need to expand to make it viable.

grovester wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:48 am

KC_JAYHAWK wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:16 am So a buddy of mine that lives in OKC said they are already expanding their 4.6 mile initial line and have ordered 2 more streetcars. I don't understand why our extensions are taking forever to materialize. Also their main 4.6 mile line cost $136M or so? Seems our 2.2 mile line cost at least that much and to expand to the Plaza is around $300M. Is it primarily due to topography?

Similarly, Milwaukee is expanding their line soon after the initial roll out.

Don't forget we voted down our initial, larger expansion. We would probably be close to riding that if it had passed.

kboish wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 4:50 pm

grovester wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:48 am

KC_JAYHAWK wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 10:16 am So a buddy of mine that lives in OKC said they are already expanding their 4.6 mile initial line and have ordered 2 more streetcars. I don't understand why our extensions are taking forever to materialize. Also their main 4.6 mile line cost $136M or so? Seems our 2.2 mile line cost at least that much and to expand to the Plaza is around $300M. Is it primarily due to topography?

Similarly, Milwaukee is expanding their line soon after the initial roll out.

Don't forget we voted down our initial, larger expansion. We would probably be close to riding that if it had passed.

Yup. Voting in 2014 would put us at opening those three extensions this year, with federal funding assured by the Obama administration. Prospect MAX would have openEd sooner, too.