W hotel

[49r]

Just for giggles, I checked out room rates for the W in Times Square.

$700-$1000 per night.

$279-$529 per night in Dallas.  Looks like that's a pretty common range for rooms outside NYC.

[kcloftylofter]

I go to st louis all the time for business. There is no Four Seasons. Are they building one? Also, the Ritz is not in their CBD, it's in Clayton (feels more like overland park)...and their new Renaissance hotel (very nice) is doing so badly there is talk about converting it to condos

Did a little research.  The St. Louis Four Seasons Hotel is under construction in part with the Pinnacle Entertainment/Casino complex on Laclede's Landing. It is 20 some stories.

The Ritz is in Clayton.  But connected to downtown by Metrolink 15 minutes to downtown now.  The new station runs directly below the Ritz.

The Renaissance has over 1,000 rooms (yet not downtown St. Louis' largest hotel/Adams Mark I think is), but is down in sales since the terrorist attacks 5 years ago today cut conventions and tourist drastically.  They also had poor management according to many articles. (search)  They are not turning the entire hotel to condos either, they plan to turn the suites tower to condos.  There are three towers to this hotel.

Yet downtown hotel sales in St. Louis look to be at 54%... which in hotel terms is pretty good.  Especially with all the hotels downtown there!! Downtown St. Louis hotel occupancy & rate up in 2006: http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stor ... ory13.html

Here is a list of Downtown St. Louis Hotels:

Adam's Mark Hotel
Courtyard By Marriott
Drury Inn & Suites St. Louis Convention Center
Drury Inn Union Station
Drury Plaza Hotel Downtown
Econo Lodge Downtown Riverfront
Embassy Suites Hotel - Saint Louis Downtown
Four Season's St. Louis  (Open Summer '07)
The Gentry's Landing (minimum 30-day stay)
Hampton Inn Gateway Arch
Hampton Inn Union Station
Hilton St. Louis Downtown Broadway
Hilton St. Louis at the Ballpark
Holiday Inn Select/Downtown Convention Center
Hyatt Regency St. Louis
Mansion House Fully-Furnished Suites (minimum 30-day stay)
Millennium Hotel St. Louis
Omni Majestic Hotel
Radisson Hotel and Suites St. Louis Downtown
Renaissance Grand Hotel St. Louis
Renaissance St. Louis Suites Hotel
Residence Inn by Marriott -- Downtown
Sheraton St. Louis City Center Hotel & Suites
The Westin St. Louis
WS Hotel and Spa
Wydham MayFair Hotel

[KCPowercat]

Did a little research.  The St. Louis Four Seasons Hotel is under construction in part with the Pinnacle Entertainment/Casino complex on Laclede's Landing. It is 20 some stories.

The Ritz is in Clayton.  But connected to downtown by Metro rail in 15 minutes to downtown now.  The new subway line there runs directly below the Ritz.

The Renaissance has over 1,000 rooms (yet not downtown St. Louis' largest hotel), but is down in sales since the terrorist attacks 5 years ago today cut conventions and tourist drastically.  They also had poor management according to many articles. (search)  They are not turning the entire hotel to condos either, they plan to turn the suites tower to condos.  There are three towers to this hotel.

Yet downtown hotel sales in St. Louis look to be at 54%... which in hotel terms is pretty good.  Especially with all the hotels downtown there!! Downtown St. Louis hotel occupancy & rate up in 2006: http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stor ... ory13.html

Here is a list of Downtown St. Louis Hotels:

Adam's Mark Hotel
Courtyard By Marriott
Drury Inn & Suites St. Louis Convention Center
Drury Inn Union Station
Drury Plaza Hotel Downtown
Econo Lodge Downtown Riverfront
Embassy Suites Hotel - Saint Louis Downtown
Four Season's St. Louis  (Open Summer '07)
The Gentry's Landing (minimum 30-day stay)
Hampton Inn Gateway Arch
Hampton Inn Union Station
Hilton St. Louis Downtown Broadway
Hilton St. Louis at the Ballpark
Holiday Inn Select/Downtown Convention Center
Hyatt Regency St. Louis
Mansion House Fully-Furnished Suites (minimum 30-day stay)
Millennium Hotel St. Louis
Omni Majestic Hotel
Radisson Hotel and Suites St. Louis Downtown
Renaissance Grand Hotel St. Louis
Renaissance St. Louis Suites Hotel
Residence Inn by Marriott -- Downtown
Sheraton St. Louis City Center Hotel & Suites
The Westin St. Louis
WS Hotel and Spa
Wydham MayFair Hotel

STL plant...like nobody could guess.  Why is KC so interesting to everybody over there?

[kcloftylofter]

What does that mean?

We're actually in St.Louis right now for the Cardinals vs. Houston... should be interesting.  We are staying downtown at the Drury Inn Plaza and it is just a stones throw from the stadium.  We haven't gone over yet.  Will give a trip report when back in Trip Reports.  Not doing a whole lot here though, just visiting firends and game, back to work on Friday.

[DaveKCMO]

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/s ... ily18.html

Convention Sports & Leisure will analyze the downtown hotel market for Kansas City, Finance Director Deb Hinsvark said Tuesday.

The Cordish Co. will use the study to decide whether to proceed with a boutique hotel the Baltimore-based developer is considering for the Power & Light District, which is scheduled to open in late 2007.

[Downtowner]

How long has KCloftylofter worked for the st louis convention and visitors bureau? That's the most insider look on St Louis I've read on here in a while.... I don't think 54% is too hot for occupancy.

[ignatius]

Talked to a Cordish developer last night at a bar.  He said Cordish is still talking to W Hotel/Starwood for a 24-34 floor hotel/condo and intends to pursue this but only if there are TIF breaks.  He implied the 'weak mayor' doesn't have enough power to alter their plans but I'm thinking if the city decides it needs a 1000 room convention hotel, it may hurt their chances.

He said 50% of retail has been announced for P&L and all other retail has agreements of some form except for one large space, which is targeted for a 'specialty dept store'.

[chrizow]

nice info ignatius, thanks.  i wonder what a "specialty dept store" is. 

"weak mayor" makes cordish sound deliciously malicious and maniacal!  muah-ha-haa!

[KCPowercat]

i was just wodering about this project this weekend.  if cordish covers the tif lets hope that satisfies the new tif policy guidelines.

[FangKC]

Kansas City obviously needs more hotel rooms just to compete with other cities. We don't have that  many in the downtown loop compared to other cities. More hotel rooms means larger and more conventions.

[kard]

Kansas City obviously needs more hotel rooms just to compete with other cities. We don't have that  many in the downtown loop compared to other cities. More hotel rooms means larger and more conventions.

And less chance of a humongo convention hotel.

[PumpkinStalker]

nice info ignatius, thanks.  i wonder what a "specialty dept store" is. 

Nieman Marcus?  Something very expensive and upperscale with a cafe might be nice.  A dept store that will blow away OP's precious Nordstrom's!

[KC-wildcat]

Just got back from a wedding in Atlanta.  Currently, two Ws are being constructed in their metro.  One DT and one in an area 5 minutes north called Uptown.  Kind of like our crown center, but a lot more residential and energetic. 

Both W hotels look amazing.  It would be great if we could get one in the middle of our DT.  It would work wonders for the image and perception of DT vibrancy. 

[FangKC]

And less chance of a humongo convention hotel.

I actually think that we need the 1000 room convention hotel and additional rooms of a W Hotel, a renovated old Muehlebach and Savoy hotels, and maybe even turn Mark Twain back into a hotel.

Downtown had a lot more convention hotel rooms in the 1920-1940s than it has now and our convention hall was tiny in comparison to today.

According to Chris Wilborn in the book, Saturday Matinee in Olde KC, from 1912 to 1931, Kansas City was the third largest convention city in the nation.  In 1929, downtown had almost 10,000 hotel rooms.

Out of our 30,000 metro area hotel rooms, there are only about 3,778 convention rooms downtown.

Add a 1,000 room convention hotel, and 200-room W Hotel, that's still only 4,978 rooms downtown.

Renovate Savoy, old Muehlebach, and convert Mark Twain back into a hotel and maybe an additional 300 rooms can be added for a totel of 5,278.  Add a 200-room new addition to the Savoy and it's still only 5,478 rooms downtown.  A 200-room hotel at Union Station only ups it to 5,678.  That's still about 4,000 rooms less than we had in 1929.

[ignatius]

Yes, downtown KC needs to nearly double the number of hotel rooms.  KC metro has a higher % of hotel rooms for its size but downtown is well below average.  KC and STL both have about 100K downtown workers and about same # of businesses that bring in hotel business.  Downtown STL has nearly twice as many hotel rooms.

In the past, when someone stays downtown on a biz trip and sees how dead it is, many will book next visit on the Plaza.  (This happens a lot with people who visit where I work in CC).  When P&L opens, visitors will have something to do after work and will tend to book downtown again on next visit.  Therefore it seems justifiable that more rooms can be added as more will likely stay next time around.  Add to it that there are more conventions booked in the next few years than KC has seen in a long time.

I also will reiterate that a W hotel/condo is probably workable in KC.  Condo/hotels do better than hotel-only joints because they also profit from concierge services to the residents.  They still can do good business with services during slow periods.

[FangKC]

KC's got culture - the city hasn't capitalized on it yet in any meaningful way. Hell, even Memphis is beating KC in the tourism department, and not just because of Elvis. I could see Memphis getting a W before KC.

On tourism, did a google and KC gets about 16 million tourists per year..
http://www.iced.org/e-news/0706/

Memphis gets about 8 million tourists.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TRAVEL/DES ... p.memphis/

Reuthermonkey makes the brash claim that Memphis has more visitors than Kansas City, but the stats that were posted show Kansas City has double the annual visitors.

[Highlander]

Now that this thread is active again, What the hell is going on with this block.  Last I heard, the condo/hotel concept was still alive but it's been months and nothin has happened.  Anybody know anything?  Has construction of anything other than the parking garage started on this block?

[FangKC]

Only the parking garage. I think the W Hotel proposal got held up by the Mayor's election and his call for a task force on TIF guidelines. Now that they are in place, we'll see what happens.

[QueSi2Opie]

Has construction of anything other than the parking garage started on this block?

Well, the parking garage does appear to have street level retail facing Main Street.

[KCTigerFan]

Yep.  I heard that the Main street retail is progressing.  They are getting ready to get the grocery building going.  I believe that the tower still needs some city approvals as it isn't technically part of the already approved P&L district. 

Well, the parking garage does appear to have street level retail facing Main Street.