KCRag Forum

And Brightline is private & at any point can choose to increase freight on their lines over passenger travel.

I think we're at a weird crossroads right now when it comes to transit because electric cars are still violent dangerous speeding machines & often heavier than gas cars. No one really knows the right answer for public transit either. Going to have to speed it along quickly or this country is going to get left in the dust.

I'm admitting I'm not anything close to an expert here and am just offering opinions for discussion. Everything I said could be wrong.

But what we're doing isn't working. I'm not sure it's salvageable in its current form.

It reminds me of when the military wanted to close down bases but everyone said no because they were in their district or state. So they had to set up a special process.

I feel like we're there with passenger rail. But then it would lose all support. So we have this completely stupid system.

We need to focus on certain areas and make them work and sorry you can't take a train from NY to California.

I feel like it’s some of the massive cross country trips that keeps a certain amount of goodwill towards amtrak alive. It’s not just a commuter system, it can be this crazy, weird land cruise that cuts these legendary routes across the country. Sometimes 9 hours late, sure but you win some you lose some.

Point being, I’m not sure what exactly would be redistributed if parts of amtrak are cut at this point. I’m not sure you’d get an equal amount of new service elsewhere. Instead the service would probably just get permanently cut out of the system and nobody wins.

That said, I welcome private rail companies, for the sole reason that it adds a different strategy and perspective to passenger railroading that the US desperately needs.

I don't know what the demand for a train between KC/Wichita/OKC/Dallas would be like, but damn, I'd take that thing once or twice a month.

mean wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 8:19 pm I don't know what the demand for a train between KC/Wichita/OKC/Dallas would be like, but damn, I'd take that thing once or twice a month.

I’d do it once a month to/from Dallas if

- it was cheaper round trip than a southwest flight
- I could work remotely and answer video calls from the train without interruption
- I can expect the train to depart at a consistent time without significant delays

WoodDraw wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:47 pm I'm admitting I'm not anything close to an expert here and am just offering opinions for discussion. Everything I said could be wrong.

But what we're doing isn't working. I'm not sure it's salvageable in its current form.

It reminds me of when the military wanted to close down bases but everyone said no because they were in their district or state. So they had to set up a special process.

I feel like we're there with passenger rail. But then it would lose all support. So we have this completely stupid system.

We need to focus on certain areas and make them work and sorry you can't take a train from NY to California.

But we have to remember that the stupid system (agree) is a legacy of the railroads lobbying Congress and winning freedom from their passenger service obligations. They took what were becoming unprofitable services and foisted them onto the federal government which has basically run them as leisure/lifeline service. I also agree, somewhat, with the military base analogy but I think it actually works slightly in Amtrak's favor. If it weren't for the geographically broad coalition, the only rail service in this country would be the Northeast Corridor services--at least up until Brightline's recent arrival.

That said, I also agree a massive overhaul is needed. The infrastructure act was a good start, but there is so much more that needs to be done. Here in the northeast (PHL), the service is relatively frequent, but the timetables and prices are all over the place. You will have two trains for New York leaving within five minutes of each other and then no additional trains for an hour which, I gather is mostly because those trains are actually different services. One, for example, might be the Amtrak Northeast Regional, while the other is likely to be the Keystone Service (which runs from Harrisburg, PA to NYC via Philadelphia).

Amtrak sees these at different products, but the PHL-NYC customer doesn't. They are the same trains, running very similar service patterns, but priced differently for various reasons.

Which also gets me to the Northeast Corridor services in general (and eventually the kind of services we'd like to see across the country). The demand based pricing model stinks if one of our goals is to reduce demand for private automobiles. When I want to go to NY or DC, if I plan a month out I can usually find a train for ~$20 each way, a great deal. However, if I want or need to travel in the next two weeks or sooner, the train prices can frequently be $90 or more each way. And this isn't even talking Acela service which has nicer, quieter trains and makes fewer stops.

This kind of pricing reduces economic activity and also makes people hesitant to give up a car because their ability to make spontaneous trips is reduced. I think in very dense corridors like the Northeast, Amtrak should eventually moved to a fixed price model to encourage the corridor to be used more like a very big metro.

TL;DR - We have so far to go, haha.

Cratedigger wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 8:58 am I’d do it once a month to/from Dallas if

- it was cheaper round trip than a southwest flight
- I could work remotely and answer video calls from the train without interruption
- I can expect the train to depart at a consistent time without significant delays

If I can work all day from the train on reliable wifi and not have to take half a day off to fly (or all day off to drive), I'm still saving money even if the train costs more. I've tried to squeeze the entirety of a flight (from leaving my house until arrival at destination) into an "extra long lunch" and it pushes the bounds of credibility. Sure, the wheels-up time might be a long lunch, but there's a lot more downtime than that. I feel safer just taking half the day off and not worrying about it. With a nice morning train departure, this should be a non-issue. Sounds delightful, frankly! Can't imagine it happening between now and the time I retire though.

Planes can't even guarantee you connectivity while onboard and they're using satellite connections. The biggest issue with connectivity onboard existing trains isn't the trains or their equipment, it's the cellular coverage. Amtrak uses enterprise class routers that can switch between providers (KCATA used these onboard buses, too, but didn't use multiple SIMs even though that was supported). Satellite would be slower than terrestrial connections, so I suppose they could flip to satellite when there's no cellular but I'm sure the cost doesn't work out.

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 11:55 am Planes can't even guarantee you connectivity while onboard and they're using satellite connections. The biggest issue with connectivity onboard existing trains isn't the trains or their equipment, it's the cellular coverage. Amtrak uses enterprise class routers that can switch between providers (KCATA used these onboard buses, too, but didn't use multiple SIMs even though that was supported). Satellite would be slower than terrestrial connections, so I suppose they could flip to satellite when there's no cellular but I'm sure the cost doesn't work out.

Starlink, maybe the only musk invention I get excited about,may eventually be a solution to this. Speeds are pretty exciting with the current residential systems.

langosta wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 12:56 pm

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 11:55 am Planes can't even guarantee you connectivity while onboard and they're using satellite connections. The biggest issue with connectivity onboard existing trains isn't the trains or their equipment, it's the cellular coverage. Amtrak uses enterprise class routers that can switch between providers (KCATA used these onboard buses, too, but didn't use multiple SIMs even though that was supported). Satellite would be slower than terrestrial connections, so I suppose they could flip to satellite when there's no cellular but I'm sure the cost doesn't work out.

Starlink, maybe the only musk invention I get excited about,may eventually be a solution to this. Speeds are pretty exciting with the current residential systems.

Can attest, my grandparents finally got it a few months ago (after a long waitlist) and have only been raving about it since. Speeds went from barely being able to navigate Facebook on a hardline (Hughes net) to streaming on a smart TV on WiFi alone and FaceTiming us. It should definitely be a consideration as the lower altitude of the satellites allows for significant better latency than legacy satellite on geo stationary

Hopefully they figure out how to connect the Heartland Flyer and Southwest Chief since the arrival in Newton (KS) to/from KC is between 2-3am each way. Not a great location to be stuck waiting on a connection for a couple of hours in the middle of the night.

kcjak wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 9:29 am Hopefully they figure out how to connect the Heartland Flyer and Southwest Chief since the arrival in Newton (KS) to/from KC is between 2-3am each way. Not a great location to be stuck waiting on a connection for a couple of hours in the middle of the night.

That's what they want to start with. It will likely be a similar schedule than the existing bus connection.

Has there ever been a study that said what the cost to double track the route and remove all at-grade crossings between STL and KC would be?

Even with existing curves and such, could we get this route up to 100-120 MPH realistically? Just doing some quick math in my head, building a road bridge to replace 2-3 at-grade crossings in some small towns would be like $5-10 million each. I'd guess at least 30-40 of these would be needed so I'll estimate $7.5m * 40 = $300 million , doubling the track could be like $2million a mile from a quick google search I did, (say 200 miles worth?) for another $400 million. Plus say $100 million for other upgrades, and could we realistically do it for $800 million? I mean if we could make this competitive with driving for under a billion, we should 100% do it.

dnweava wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 10:11 am Has there ever been a study that said what the cost to double track the route and remove all at-grade crossings between STL and KC would be?

Even with existing curves and such, could we get this route up to 100-120 MPH realistically? Just doing some quick math in my head, building a road bridge to replace 2-3 at-grade crossings in some small towns would be like $5-10 million each. I'd guess at least 30-40 of these would be needed so I'll estimate $7.5m * 40 = $300 million , doubling the track could be like $2million a mile from a quick google search I did, (say 200 miles worth?) for another $400 million. Plus say $100 million for other upgrades, and could we realistically do it for $800 million? I mean if we could make this competitive with driving for under a billion, we should 100% do it.

That requires the state government to give a shit about rail though…

I think the MU (?) study identified most of the big ticket items that would improve travel time and reliability, some of which were actually built during the Obama administration. However, the scheduled time has remained at 5h40m for as long as I've been paying attention to the MRR and reliability has been all over the map.

And lest we forget that former Gov. Nixon applied for HSR funds for the KC-STL corridor on his way out of office...

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 11:50 am I think the MU (?) study identified most of the big ticket items that would improve travel time and reliability, some of which were actually built during the Obama administration. However, the scheduled time has remained at 5h40m for as long as I've been paying attention to the MRR and reliability has been all over the map.

And lest we forget that former Gov. Nixon applied for HSR funds for the KC-STL corridor on his way out of office...

I really feel like a moderately fast train along a KC-COU-STL alignment would be very succesful.

Indeed! As soon as on-time performance hit the 90-100% range after these capital improvements ridership increased significantly!

I don't think I mentioned it while I was complaining above, but the new coaches are quite nice!

Long distance study comments
https://fralongdistancerailstudy.org

it's strange that Las Vegas was never connected, at least to Barstow

For my whole childhood, there was an Amtrak route from LA to Salt Lake City (and on to Chicago), going through Barstow and Las Vegas. It was called the Desert Wind. My family would take it from SoCal to SLC almost every Christmas to go skiing. I chalk up my love of long-distance trains to that route.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Wind