KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Transportation topics in KC
trexel94
Strip mall
Strip mall
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:57 pm

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by trexel94 »

langosta wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:46 pm Portland has 15 weekly flights to Europe on 4 airlines while KC has none.

https://simpleflying.com/portland-welco ... -recovery/
Portland's situation is almost an exact reverse of KC's. Overserved internationally, underserved domestically.

DL's PDX-AMS is a leftover of NW's focus city operation
Condor and Icelandair cater to tourists; The Pacific Northwest is popular with European hikers.
BA utilizes its partnership with Alaska; both are OneWorld members. Over 57k PDEW between PDX-LHR while MCI is only around 17/18k (we're still the largest unserved LHR-USA market outside of CLE)
Nike's global HQ drives a lot of traffic as well

And yet PDX is sorely lacking key domestic markets that we've had for years; MIA, MSY, PHL, practically no midwestern cities aside from MCI & STL etc
User avatar
normalthings
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8018
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by normalthings »

trexel94 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 5:50 pm Hi all, new here!! also trexel94 from Airliners.net and Loschner94 from Urbanstl.

About time KC got serious with landing TATL. Quite astounding the state is willing to front $5 million and should be plenty for a full service carrier (or 2). Is this in addition to the existing $1.2 million that's largely comprised of local/private money?

If KC is to land a TATL, does the airport have a kitchen? When Icelandair flew the meals in first class had to be provided by a local restaurant.

For those suggesting DL, not so fast. Justin Meyer and I had a call last year and while tight lipped about potential service overall, he refused to comment on DL launching a long haul route but did state that RDU and CVG etc could be added. Not saying impossible but hardly a given. Reading between the lines, BA and Icelandair (pov) appear to be our best bet as LHR is the most popular route. Justin is a friend of mine and I intend to reach out to him about the incentives package this coming Monday. Does anyone here have any questions they'd like me to ask him?

Lastly, it should be noted that this package doesn't automatically mean it all goes to European service. From a (somewhat dated) publication in 2014, Central America/Caribbean and Asia were faster growing than Europe so flights to MEX, GDL and SJU could work as well. Whatever the case, I just hope we don't splurge the entire package on one airline. Imagine spending $5 million only to end up with the likes of Aer Lingus or Icelandair again.
Some of the domestic business class services out of KCI have meals. Probably not too big of an issue to continue using a restaurant as Icelandair did or whatever those airlines are using.
User avatar
GRID
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 17083
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by GRID »

Serious question here.

Does it really matter? I mean when a city only has one flight to a European city like Frankfurt or London, what are the chances that most people's destination is that city?

If you are going to Amsterdam or Madrid or Paris, you are going to have to make a connection, it will just be in Europe rather than somewhere in the USA.

I guess the major advantage is you have more destinations from a hub in Europe?

My point is that if you are flying form KC or Indy or StL to some major European city you are likely going to have to make a connection regardless.

Also, I fly international often and we will often drive or take a train to JFK or Newark rather than flying out of Dulles or BWI because it's just so much cheaper and NYC has way more flights and destinations than DC airports. Even BWI only has one BA flight to London, which is nice and we have used, but our destination was London.

Maybe there is a reason a city would subsidize a flight if it has economic ties to some specific city in Europe.
Last edited by GRID on Sun May 08, 2022 7:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
earthling
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8519
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:27 pm
Location: milky way, orion arm

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by earthling »

I've pointed this out as well before with a response of crickets. Most would rather connect in a US airport anyway. Great to get TATL nonstops if they naturally occur but questionable to subsidize them. If companies want to pay for it then fine but more frequency of domestic flights probably has more value and payback.
User avatar
GRID
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 17083
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by GRID »

earthling wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:16 pm I've pointed this out as well before with a response of crickets. Most would rather connect in a US airport anyway. Great to get TATL nonstops if they naturally occur but questionable to subsidize them. If companies want to pay for it then fine but more frequency of domestic flights probably has more value and payback.
Absolutely. I would think that having more flights from KC to non hub American or Canadian cities would be far better for KC than a single flight to some a single European city.
User avatar
Anthony_Hugo98
Valencia Place
Valencia Place
Posts: 1932
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:50 pm
Location: Overland Park, KS

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

I can attest to the fact after flying TATL many times while I was stationed there that having a single connection in Europe would’ve been INFINITELY better to me than in the US (especially Schengen) a direct to AMS/CDL/LHR means you have access to the euro-domestic route in its entirety. Even large hubs in the US only have access to a handful of Euro cities. I could only ever gets directs out of Venice to the US in the summer, seeing as it was a vacation destination type. In the fall/winter it would be Venice—>Amsterdam—>Minneapolis—>Kansas City. The stress of worrying about bag transfers, timing tight connections, customs lines and the like all make me appreciate a Euro hub connection far more than a U.S.; given I could be the odd man out but that’s my 2¢
User avatar
normalthings
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8018
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by normalthings »

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:45 pm I can attest to the fact after flying TATL many times while I was stationed there that having a single connection in Europe would’ve been INFINITELY better to me than in the US (especially Schengen) a direct to AMS/CDL/LHR means you have access to the euro-domestic route in its entirety. Even large hubs in the US only have access to a handful of Euro cities. I could only ever gets directs out of Venice to the US in the summer, seeing as it was a vacation destination type. In the fall/winter it would be Venice—>Amsterdam—>Minneapolis—>Kansas City. The stress of worrying about bag transfers, timing tight connections, customs lines and the like all make me appreciate a Euro hub connection far more than a U.S.; given I could be the odd man out but that’s my 2¢
It’s not just Vinice. Madrid and other relatively large cities are frequently 2 layovers from KC.

A direct Europe flight brings most of the continent into a single layover as well as much of Africa, ME, and India. Demand would also be greatly stimulated to the destination city (100-150%+ potentially).

A direct flight would leave KC in the afternoon/evening and arrive in Europe in the morning. (See STL’s 4pm Lufthansa departure or British Airways 9pm NOLA departure). Allowing for a full day in the office and un-interrupted sleep/work in the air. To arrive in London before 8/9am, I have to leave KC in the morning or early afternoon today.
Last edited by normalthings on Sun May 08, 2022 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Anthony_Hugo98
Valencia Place
Valencia Place
Posts: 1932
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:50 pm
Location: Overland Park, KS

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

normalthings wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 8:18 pm
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:45 pm I can attest to the fact after flying TATL many times while I was stationed there that having a single connection in Europe would’ve been INFINITELY better to me than in the US (especially Schengen) a direct to AMS/CDL/LHR means you have access to the euro-domestic route in its entirety. Even large hubs in the US only have access to a handful of Euro cities. I could only ever gets directs out of Venice to the US in the summer, seeing as it was a vacation destination type. In the fall/winter it would be Venice—>Amsterdam—>Minneapolis—>Kansas City. The stress of worrying about bag transfers, timing tight connections, customs lines and the like all make me appreciate a Euro hub connection far more than a U.S.; given I could be the odd man out but that’s my 2¢
It’s not just Vinice. Madrid and other relatively large cities are frequently 2 layovers from KC.

A direct Europe flight brings most of the continent into a single layover as well as much of Africa, ME, and India. Demand would also be greatly stimulated to the destination city (100-150%+ potentially).

A direct flight would leave KC in the afternoon/evening and arrive in Europe in the morning. (See STL’s 4pm Lufthansa departure or British Airways 9pm NOLA departure). Allowing for a full day in the office and in-interrupted sleep/work in the air.
Bingo, the lost time for a U.S. connection is FAR greater than a Euro hub, and the access to destinations on the tail end are significantly better than U.S.
earthling
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8519
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:27 pm
Location: milky way, orion arm

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by earthling »

Venice... one stop in Philly from MCI...
https://www.google.com/travel/flights/b ... IGCAEQABgA

Madrid.. one stop in Newark from MCI (via United or AA)...
https://www.google.com/travel/flights/b ... IGCAEQABgA

Options should improve as international travel kicks back into gear. And even if MCI subsidized a TATL, would it be daily? There would be some practical use cases I'm sure but how heavily should that be subsidized. And is the payback better than broader, more frequent domestic service.
User avatar
normalthings
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8018
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by normalthings »

earthling wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 8:50 pm Venice... one stop in Philly from MCI...
https://www.google.com/travel/flights/b ... IGCAEQABgA

Madrid.. one stop in Newark from MCI (via United or AA)...
https://www.google.com/travel/flights/b ... IGCAEQABgA

Options should improve as international travel kicks back into gear. And even if MCI subsidized a TATL, would it be daily? There would be some practical use cases I'm sure but how heavily should that be subsidized. And is the payback better than broader, more frequent domestic service.
19 hour return is horrible. Really only proves my point and that’s during peak summer service. Also leaves mid day


Lufthansa
STL is getting 3 weekly. Rumor is that frequency will increase quickly.

Delta
IND varied between 6 (travel peak) and 3/4 in winter. (cancelled)
Cincinnati - 3 weekly when starting back up this summer.

British Airways
Nashville: started 5 times weekly
New Orleans: 6 or 7 pre-covid
Last edited by normalthings on Sun May 08, 2022 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Anthony_Hugo98
Valencia Place
Valencia Place
Posts: 1932
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:50 pm
Location: Overland Park, KS

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

earthling wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 8:50 pm Venice... one stop in Philly from MCI...

…Options should improve as international travel kicks back into gear.
Yes, summer travel season, which I specifically mentioned in the previous comment. It was only ever a one stop between late Apr & Mid Sept even BEFORE Covid. It’s easier to get to destinations that aren’t metroplexes with a Euro hub than a U.S. hub is the point we were previously making.

The benefits previously mentioned above as well are why direct to Euro hub is better. I.e. leave late afternoon/early evening. Usually between 4-7 from our part of the country, meaning you can still get in at minimum a half day before travel. Travel time is reduced on the back end once arriving to your final destination in Europe (if connecting through a Schengen airport) as you’ll have already cleared customs. Arrival times back to the states wouldn’t be much better as well, again, early evening time frame instead of late at night.

This is all before even mentioning the multitude of issues with lost baggage, tight connections, delays and the like.
User avatar
normalthings
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8018
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by normalthings »

STL, Tampa, and other cities advertise the economic impact of a direct Europe flight as $100 million or so.
User avatar
GRID
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 17083
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by GRID »

You guys make good points I guess. I didn't really start flying international till I moved to the east coast and between DC/Philly/NYC, it's insane how many options there are and it has contributed to us traveling internationally on a regular basis.

Maybe it's worth the incentives to have at least one TATL.
dev49
New York Life
New York Life
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:06 pm

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by dev49 »

As others mentioned the new one stop options that used to be two stop are probably the biggest deal of a nonstop to Europe. Or just getting better connection times to secondary cities because the Europe hub probably is running more flights to the secondary cities a day than the maybe one or two a day from a US hub. It is more about those than still one stop to major hubs like Paris, London, Frankfurt, etc.

Example.
June
Chicago to Madrid 1 nonstop
NYC to Madrid. 6 nonstops
Paris to Madrid 24 nonstops
London to Madrid 25 nonstops

So it’s going to be a lot easier to get flights that match up once you get over there. Or if a flight is late getting in, a lot more options to choose from to rebook.
User avatar
normalthings
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8018
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by normalthings »

normalthings wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 8:18 pm
It’s not just Vinice. Madrid and other relatively large cities are frequently 2 layovers from KC.

A direct Europe flight brings most of the continent into a single layover as well as much of Africa, ME, and India. Demand would also be greatly stimulated to the destination city (100-150%+ potentially).

A direct flight would leave KC in the afternoon/evening and arrive in Europe in the morning. (See STL’s 4pm Lufthansa departure or British Airways 9pm NOLA departure). Allowing for a full day in the office and un-interrupted sleep/work in the air. To arrive in London before 8/9am, I have to leave KC in the morning or early afternoon today.
An example of how a direct flight can stimulate demand....

It said prior to Icelandair's arrival, demand for transatlantic trips in the summer months averaged over 400 passengers a day each way, with a peak month in June 2017 that exceeded 550 daily passengers. It says in June 2019, transatlantic demand at KCI increased to nearly 800 passengers per day each way. Sep 30, 2019 KCUR

Where people in 2019 where going the most...
Current demand is strongest for flights to Paris, London and Dublin.
User avatar
beautyfromashes
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 7189
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by beautyfromashes »

GRID wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 10:55 pm You guys make good points I guess. I didn't really start flying international till I moved to the east coast and between DC/Philly/NYC, it's insane how many options there are and it has contributed to us traveling internationally on a regular basis.

Maybe it's worth the incentives to have at least one TATL.
East Coast cities have a huge amount of options to Europe that are very cheap. They pay for these fares mostly by charging interior cities traveling through them a huge amount for the connection flight. So, maybe for you, out of NYC can get a $400 direct flight to Paris. They charge us close to $1000 to connect through NY. A direct transatlantic puts pressure on the old transfer flights through the East Coast to lower their prices to complete with the convenience of the nonstop. So, instead of charging $950 they have to lower the price to $750 to complete against the convenience of the nonstop. THAT is a big win for the city.
WoodDraw
Hotel President
Hotel President
Posts: 3348
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:53 pm

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by WoodDraw »

As everyone said, it's a significant convenience for people that fly to other European or middle eastern cities

It would be like saying why would a European city want a direct flight to Miami? It opens up connections to pretty much every city of significance in north, Central, and south America.

That's what the big European hubs offer. If you're just flying occasionally to London or Paris, this matters less but it's still nice.
earthling
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8519
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:27 pm
Location: milky way, orion arm

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by earthling »

^Yeah more options are certainly more convenient. Where I'm going is should subsidizing that be a priority over fixing domestic holes. KCI only has 40-50 nonstops compared to over 100 when Vanguard was operating and frequency dropped well before pandemic. Mid-sized cities are at the whim of airlines to decide the destiny of cities to a degree. KC economy probably would benefit more from subsidies to entice a local startup similar to Vanguard days when the timing is right (not yet). And then pursue TATL.
User avatar
normalthings
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8018
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by normalthings »

Destroying relationships with proven airline partners is not in the city’s best interest.

The days of 10-50 seaters is gone.
earthling
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8519
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:27 pm
Location: milky way, orion arm

Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

Post by earthling »

^It didn't destroy relationships when Vanguard was operating. Balancing out airlines also means better fares than airports dominated by one airline (see history of MSP).
Post Reply