GRID wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:40 am
^ I thought KC's numbers were more comparable or would even beat out most of the cities on this list. So this tells me that StL should be fine ,but KC getting a TATL flight is very much a long shot at least right now.
Little bit newer numbers. Should include some of the time these routes had service to Europe which pushed them up.
Data based on the 12 months to September 2019.
US airport Traffic to/from London --- Traffic to Europe
St. Louis 38,800 --- 260,700
Cleveland 37,500 --- 269,600
Cincinnati 37,100 --- 239,100
Kansas City 35,400 --- 217,400
Indianapolis 34,769 --- 201,000
Columbus 31,100 --- 177,000
CVG and IND had directs on Delta to Paris in 2019. STL had WOW which stimulated demand significantly with their frequent $49 and $99 flights.
KCI also had their summer service to Iceland during these numbers.
I think Cleveland did also. But not sure.
STL had WOW for 3 off season months of this figure. No service in 2019
beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:09 pm
Icelandair isn’t going to cut it for me. We had them with an old outdated airport. We need to see some return on an investment for a new airport. The minimum I’d expect is a direct flight to a major European city.
If St. Louis gets an international with no real expenditure vs Kansas City building a whole new airport, then it will be a massive failure for the cities aviation department, airport management and city leaders. A European nonstop has to come with the airport completion.
I wonder if travel will have picked up enough by Summer 2022 to fill those STL flights.STL landed an LH flight because STL businesses are paying for it. They also have an existing airport that is better than the poor experience at current KCI. Not landing an international flight on day 1 does not reflect a lack of competence from the aviation department.
We need Delta, a Skyteam partner, or an IAG airline. United/Star Alliance are pretty weak here and LH level of service (and accompanying ticket prices) are too much for this market (and I suspect st. Louis). Pre-covid Delta flew Cincinnati-Paris daily and Indianapolis-Paris 6 times weekly. Would like to see that here over the 3X weekly service STL is getting. If you are a Delta or AA frequent flier in STL, you really have no incentive to take those LH flights unless you are flying directly to Frankfurt. It will be interesting to see if it sticks
normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:10 amNot landing an international flight on day 1 does not reflect a lack of competence from the aviation department.
So, you’re saying with us being the largest US city without a European nonstop, after building a brand new airport, we still can’t compete with Indianapolis and St. Louis and Cincinnati? Explain that to me.
normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:10 amNot landing an international flight on day 1 does not reflect a lack of competence from the aviation department.
So, you’re saying with us being the largest US city without a European nonstop, after building a brand new airport, we still can’t compete with Indianapolis and St. Louis and Cincinnati? Explain that to me.
Aviation Department can only do soo much. Indianapolis has a state and St. Louis a business community willing to buy them a flight. Cincinnati’s flight was a leftover from their Delta hub days.
normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:10 amNot landing an international flight on day 1 does not reflect a lack of competence from the aviation department.
So, you’re saying with us being the largest US city without a European nonstop, after building a brand new airport, we still can’t compete with Indianapolis and St. Louis and Cincinnati? Explain that to me.
As normal mentions it’s all about incentives. The 1.5 mil that has been mentioned isn’t getting you anyone except maybe a flight to Iceland. Other cities that offer more will just keep jumping KC.
Id guess at minimum they need 4 mil for a major carrier. Aer Lingus might be less once they get their A321XLRs because it’s a smaller plane.
normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:10 amNot landing an international flight on day 1 does not reflect a lack of competence from the aviation department.
So, you’re saying with us being the largest US city without a European nonstop, after building a brand new airport, we still can’t compete with Indianapolis and St. Louis and Cincinnati? Explain that to me.
KC's lack of fortune 500 companies is what will keep it from getting international flights.
KC just needs to concentrate on building up decent domestic flights and the new terminal should go a long way in helping it do that.
Confirmed - Lufthansa is adding STL to Frankfurt GE service this summer.
Happy New Year. Enjoy the reality check. In the real world NOBODY cares about KC's new, underwhelming airport terminal. $1 billion dollars, and not even a working fountain.
This is what happens when you blindly place your trust and money into private, for profit businesses. They DON'T have your own interests at heart. It's just business. You have to truly fight for the change you desire.. and passively throwing money into infrastructure that business ownership doesn't care about doesn't help you out.
Airport construction process was pretty standard. Same architects and construction company used across the nations. Design is pretty similar to Love field which they told us is what we were getting back in 2017-2018.
normalthings wrote: ↑Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:39 pm
Airport construction process was pretty standard. Same architects and construction company used across the nations. Design is pretty similar to Love field which they told us is what we were getting back in 2017-2018.
Keyword - "Standard"
For small to midsize airports. That's not going to draw a ton of new, exciting route options.
normalthings wrote: ↑Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:39 pm
Airport construction process was pretty standard. Same architects and construction company used across the nations. Design is pretty similar to Love field which they told us is what we were getting back in 2017-2018.
Keyword - "Standard"
For small to midsize airports. That's not going to draw a ton of new, exciting route options.
I mean the groups involved are mostly working the biggest airports in the US. We got what Southwest considers standard + improvements over previous designs (Love, Midway). We are a Southwest airport and they are paying for the new terminal. We are not seeing the cost overruns or high costs/passenger that “fancy” terminal projects saw and that led to route cuts.
Providing good facilities with as low as possible cost per emplanement is one of the most important things to us getting connections.
im2kull wrote: ↑Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:33 pm
Happy New Year. Enjoy the reality check. In the real world NOBODY cares about KC's new, underwhelming airport terminal. $1 billion dollars, and not even a working fountain.
Nobody cares about anybody’s airport except outside their own city.
They did a good job with the new airport. Stop underselling it before the first fight has even taken off the ground.
The impact from going from a flaming piece of shit to a “nice” airport is massive. The margin of increase for KC old to new airport is greater than any cities in the country that’s built new. That’s what matters in the equation.
The new airport needed to be functional and it will be. The airlines dictated what they wanted and that’s they way it should be since they are going to pay for it. Flashy or anything more than that doesn’t matter to what flights come down the road. It’s probably better they didn’t spend money on fountains and other stuff like that. It would be a wasted expense.
dev49 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:38 am
The new airport needed to be functional and it will be. The airlines dictated what they wanted and that’s they way it should be since they are going to pay for it. Flashy or anything more than that doesn’t matter to what flights come down the road. It’s probably better they didn’t spend money on fountains and other stuff like that. It would be a wasted expense.
And tbh, I think what's gonna make this airport from a consumer perspective is that awesome City Market setup they're looking to build. That's real culture. Not the stupid fountains.
We are never getting back to 100. These are the kinds of cities that we once had but will never have again even if we had a hometown airline. STL has ~70 now which is about as much as we could hope for.
