KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

[normalthings]

LH posted $1200-1400 roundtrip in economy for STL.

[alejandro46]

Good for STL I guess. I wonder if there is a heavy subsidy. Is this new or returning service?

[normalthings]

Good for STL I guess. I wonder if there is a heavy subsidy. Is this new or returning service?

$5.5 million for 3x weekly. Subsidy per flight is well above peers pre-covid.

[alejandro46]

Good for STL I guess. I wonder if there is a heavy subsidy. Is this new or returning service?

$5.5 million for 3x weekly. Subsidy per flight is well above peers pre-covid.

Thanks for the info, I do now see that news is reporting on this.

I don't travel internationally much anymore but this route could be good for KCMO as it's only a quick jump to STL and then a train ride or short flight to much of Europe from Frankfurt. Personally, I try to keep my connections limited to the US side if possible. I'd rather fly to a big hub and then direct to my destination versus a EU mainland connection, as going through customs and then dragging myself through the airport to make another connection after an international flight isn't fun.

[dukuboy1]

JetBlue is nice, do we have Alaskan Airlines? Regardless let's home all carriers take notice and provide more options to make things as good as they can be

[earthling]

^^Yeah I also typically prefer to connect in US than at a foreign airport, partly because I'm very familiar with every US hub. For less experienced flyers would think even more likely to desire to connect through a US airport as they may also be concerned about potential language issues. I don't recall ever running into that but can understand less experienced travelers would avoid the possibility.

It's a pricey move to subsidize these flights for leisure travel but if the biz community pays for a good portion, can have its place.

[normalthings]

JetBlue is nice, do we have Alaskan Airlines?

yes we do!

[WoodDraw]

Good for STL I guess. I wonder if there is a heavy subsidy. Is this new or returning service?

$5.5 million for 3x weekly. Subsidy per flight is well above peers pre-covid.

Thanks for the info, I do now see that news is reporting on this.

I don't travel internationally much anymore but this route could be good for KCMO as it's only a quick jump to STL and then a train ride or short flight to much of Europe from Frankfurt. Personally, I try to keep my connections limited to the US side if possible. I'd rather fly to a big hub and then direct to my destination versus a EU mainland connection, as going through customs and then dragging myself through the airport to make another connection after an international flight isn't fun.

Yeah, I’m not sure stl does anything for kc unless you’re flying to Frankfurt. If you’re connecting stateside, you’re almost always better off connecting through a big hub here that flys direct to where you want.

The benefit of a direct flight is that once you land you’re a connecting flight away from all of Europe in cdg, ams, fra, so on. So you typically cut out one flight.

Say you want to go to Paris, you could do Mci>stl>fra>cdg, or just fly to Chicago, Dfw, msp, Atlanta, Detroit, so on all close by and fly direct from there.

[alejandro46]

$5.5 million for 3x weekly. Subsidy per flight is well above peers pre-covid.

Thanks for the info, I do now see that news is reporting on this.

I don't travel internationally much anymore but this route could be good for KCMO as it's only a quick jump to STL and then a train ride or short flight to much of Europe from Frankfurt. Personally, I try to keep my connections limited to the US side if possible. I'd rather fly to a big hub and then direct to my destination versus a EU mainland connection, as going through customs and then dragging myself through the airport to make another connection after an international flight isn't fun.

Yeah, I’m not sure stl does anything for kc unless you’re flying to Frankfurt. If you’re connecting stateside, you’re almost always better off connecting through a big hub here that flys direct to where you want.

The benefit of a direct flight is that once you land you’re a connecting flight away from all of Europe in cdg, ams, fra, so on. So you typically cut out one flight.

Say you want to go to Paris, you could do Mci>stl>fra>cdg, or just fly to Chicago, Dfw, msp, Atlanta, Detroit, so on all close by and fly direct from there.

Agreed, another thing is that often the first leg is basically free/at cost. For example, I flew AA from MCI-ORD-ATH and the cost of the flight was less expensive than flying ORD-ATH direct. Similarly wonky to people booking through routes and just getting off in order to save money.

[WoodDraw]

Thanks for the info, I do now see that news is reporting on this.

I don't travel internationally much anymore but this route could be good for KCMO as it's only a quick jump to STL and then a train ride or short flight to much of Europe from Frankfurt. Personally, I try to keep my connections limited to the US side if possible. I'd rather fly to a big hub and then direct to my destination versus a EU mainland connection, as going through customs and then dragging myself through the airport to make another connection after an international flight isn't fun.

Yeah, I’m not sure stl does anything for kc unless you’re flying to Frankfurt. If you’re connecting stateside, you’re almost always better off connecting through a big hub here that flys direct to where you want.

The benefit of a direct flight is that once you land you’re a connecting flight away from all of Europe in cdg, ams, fra, so on. So you typically cut out one flight.

Say you want to go to Paris, you could do Mci>stl>fra>cdg, or just fly to Chicago, Dfw, msp, Atlanta, Detroit, so on all close by and fly direct from there.

Agreed, another thing is that often the first leg is basically free/at cost. For example, I flew AA from MCI-ORD-ATH and the cost of the flight was less expensive than flying ORD-ATH direct. Similarly wonky to people booking through routes and just getting off in order to save money.

Yeah, I just played around with flights this summer and it’s fairly easy to match stl prices at Mci with 1 stop to Europe.

Sometimes you can get some better deals, off season pricing, and rewards stuff with direct.

[STLguy1]

The biggest thing for STL landing this flight is that it is a major legacy airline (with all classes) on a A330 wide body 245 seat airplane 3x a week year-round and gtd for 2 years.

Next, it wasn't any subsidies/incentives of the state or city or even the airport that put this flight into STL... it was really the corporatations that put up 2.5 million dollars in incentives. The other incentives are basically the airport reducing landing fees and the port authority pitching an advertising campaign for Lufthansa. Broken down, the airline is only really getting 2.5 million in cash incentives. So really, the airport and city will only be subsidizing landing fees at around 700,000.

For example: Austin airport alone paid out 7 million in incentives to lure BA and LH and even 4.5 million for Spirit to come in. LH and BA frequency are 1 to 2 flights a week. LH is seasonal.

https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news ... helps.html

Nashville lured British Airways in 2017 with the help of $1.5 million in incentives from the state and a $500,000 “stop gap” guarantee from the city to cover any potential losses. Nashville International Airport kicked in another $2.6 million in marketing and two years’ worth of waived airport fees to seal the deal. A deal well over 5 million dollars in incentives (and most coming from the city and airport alone). BA flies the 787 with 214 seats 2 times a week.

I would *hope* to see the new KC get service overseas. But it is not a new shiny airport that is going to get it for us. Without the strong business incentive program and airport incentive program... it may be a destinational seasonal airline (like Iceland Air) again. The airport and city isn't going to have much incentives to hand out alone and our new airport landing fees with be way higher than our peers and other larger airports. Again, new shiny airports don't get service... incentives, O&D, connections, and corporate support get service. I would like to see us grow more with domestic nonstops more than any and the frequencies of our now domestic nonstops.

Southwest has also just released that their growth over the next two years will no longer be adding new destination cities and will be at its focus (connection hub) cities... recently naming St. Louis and Nashville.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thepointsg ... -hubs/amp/

[KCPowercat]

Southwest has also just released that their growth over the next two years will no longer be adding new destination cities and will be at its focus (connection hub) cities... recently naming St. Louis and Nashville.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thepointsg ... -hubs/amp/

that link doesn't say that?

The airport and city isn't going to have much incentives to hand out alone and our new airport landing fees with be way higher than our peers and other larger airports.

Any source on any of this?

[STLguy1]

Southwest has also just released that their growth over the next two years will no longer be adding new destination cities and will be at its focus (connection hub) cities... recently naming St. Louis and Nashville.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thepointsg ... -hubs/amp/

that link doesn't say that?

The airport and city isn't going to have much incentives to hand out alone and our new airport landing fees with be way higher than our peers and other larger airports.

Any source on any of this?

Airlines will pay higher fees at new KC Airport
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kctv5. ... 3.amp.html

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... E7_Ub55a_j

From Southwest Today News October
https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/787 ... OXJYGYDADA

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FGGf5lOWYAI ... name=large

https://airlineweekly.com/2021/12/south ... 22-growth/

CEO Gary Kelly "when things get back to normal, those kinds of opportunities will have a hard time competing for our need to invest in St. Louis or Nashville or Austin."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thepointsg ... qanda/amp/

[dev49]

The biggest thing for STL landing this flight is that it is a major legacy airline (with all classes) on a A330 wide body 245 seat airplane 3x a week year-round and gtd for 2 years.

Next, it wasn't any subsidies/incentives of the state or city or even the airport that put this flight into STL... it was really the corporatations that put up 2.5 million dollars in incentives. The other incentives are basically the airport reducing landing fees and the port authority pitching an advertising campaign for Lufthansa. Broken down, the airline is only really getting 2.5 million in cash incentives. So really, the airport and city will only be subsidizing landing fees at around 700,000.

For example: Austin airport alone paid out 7 million in incentives to lure BA and LH and even 4.5 million for Spirit to come in. LH and BA frequency are 1 to 2 flights a week. LH is seasonal.

https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news ... helps.html

Nashville lured British Airways in 2017 with the help of $1.5 million in incentives from the state and a $500,000 “stop gap” guarantee from the city to cover any potential losses. Nashville International Airport kicked in another $2.6 million in marketing and two years’ worth of waived airport fees to seal the deal. A deal well over 5 million dollars in incentives (and most coming from the city and airport alone). BA flies the 787 with 214 seats 2 times a week.

Not sure where you are getting your numbers.

Austin is 5x a week on BA going back to daily in April. It ran on a 747 precovid in summer.

Lufthansa will also be 3x a week like STL when it’s starts back up. It will be going back to year round.

BNA is 3x a week going to 5x a week in summer. It never was 2x a week.

[STLguy1]

BNA You are correct it was 3x weekly.

AUS will resume in April 5x week but I do not think it ever ran on a 747 except for a month or so. And actually LH will be 5x a week on A330.

In order for us to get anything near Austin, Nashville or now STL on a legacy carrier, I truly believe we need to find the incentives (as I pointed out above). Our corporations have got to work together or the city/airport is going to have to kick in a lot.

[STLguy1]

This is a good article about STL and Luftansa and the connection

https://www.google.com/amp/s/simpleflyi ... urope/amp/

[KCPowercat]

Where do those links say our fees will be higher than our peers and other larger airports?

[dev49]

BNA You are correct it was 3x weekly.

AUS will resume in April 5x week but I do not think it ever ran on a 747 except for a month or so. And actually LH will be 5x a week on A330.

AUS had over a full year of 747/777 flights. Basically 2 before covid hit

From an article.
British Airways brought the Boeing 747-400 to Austin for the Summer 2018 season. With more seats in economy, the airline was able to sell cheaper tickets and make up for the lost revenue with larger premium cabins.
British Airways continued to enjoy full cabins on the route, as did Norwegian. In the Winter, the airline is flying the 777-300ER to Austin as opposed to reverting back to the Dreamliner. The 747 will be back on the Austin route beginning on April 1, 2019.

But back to the topic thread. The state isn’t going to help our so we need the same thing STL got, which is businesses/orgs coughing up money for flights. I’d hope that’s already in the works. They have had plenty of time to do it assuming there is someone out there taking the lead on it.

[normalthings]

The cost St. Louis is paying is well above what peers paid for what they are getting.

[beautyfromashes]

The cost St. Louis is paying is well above what peers paid for what they are getting.

Can someone give a brief explanation of airport economics? Are they worried that the flights from St. Louis won't be full? Why are flights more expensive to smaller cities while still getting subsidies that (I assume) larger cities like Atlanta aren't paying? Are they just charging the cities these fees because they can or is there some financial reason for it?