KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments

[TheUrbanRoo]

^Agreed with that last part. I don't know much about airlines, but it seems just get anything (even Aer Lingus) and just proving we can fill the planes is the best bet.

[STLguy1]

KC can only hope to fill a widebody flight if there are significant connecting opportunities. It will need to be one of the 4 major alliance cities. 50% of Lufthansa St. Louis passengers are connecting on.

50% of any traffic to Frankfurt is moving on to a connection. Not many people are going to Frankfurt for a vacation.

And who are the magical corporations that St. Louis has that everyone is using as an excuse for them to get a nonstop? They have a few Fortune 500's but most are in the high 400s. And just because Cerner and old Sprint aren't headquartered here doesn't mean they aren't sending executives out from here. Panera and their shitty food can't be pushing that much traffic to Europe.

This isn't a city/city passing match... no reason to bash KC or STL.
Overall, to be considered a F500 company or to even break that distinction is not an easy task and quite an honor. Don't underestimate the power these mammoth money maker have. STL is highly rated and has lost (consolidations buyouts mergers) but also gained F500 companies over the past 40 years and mostly remained a top F500 market. All F500 companies in Missouri are in STL except for one ... O'Reilly in Springfield.

Our corporate economic status doesn't even rank anywhere near what STL has. They have old and new corporations that are mover and shakers in that city/metro.

Overall, they rank the 7th largest metro in the USA (CNN Money 2021) and as of 2022, the St. Louis area is home to eight Fortune 500 companies: Centene, Emerson Electric, Reinsurance Group of America, Edward Jones Investments, Graybar Electric, Olin, Ameren, and Post Holdings.
EIght of Forbes' largest private companies in America are headquarted in STL and over 20 F1000 companies are headquarted in STL including:
Bunge (which relocated its world headquarters to STL in 2019, with $41 billion in revenue)
Anheuser-Busch
Arch Coal Resources
Belden
Energizer Holdings
Enterprise Holdings
HOK
Nestlé Purina PetCare
Panera Bread
Peabody Energy (almost a F500 company)
Stifel Financial
Bayer
World Wide Technology
Graybar
Wells Fargo Advisors
BJC Healthcare
Build-A-Bear Workshop
Caleres
Drury Hotels
Mastercard International

[beautyfromashes]

St. Louis companies and organizations that committed funding to improve the region’s global economic competitiveness and help secure the flights include: Centene, Emerson, Enterprise Holdings Inc., Greater St. Louis, Inc. Hermann Companies, Hunter Engineering, Nestlé Purina PetCare, St. Louis County Port Authority, St. Louis Lambert International Airport, and the William T. Kemper Foundation.

But, why do you make that sound insurmountable? Most of these are just fillers. Government/Port Authority/Airport/Foundations: We have all those tomorrow. So, we're talking about 3-4 companies. Who is in charge of marketing the airport and a potential nonstop to the large corporations we have here? Garmin doesn't do business in Europe? Cerner? Lockton? Engineering Firms?

[beautyfromashes]

Overall, to be considered a F500 company or to even break that distinction is not an easy task and quite an honor.

Is it though? It's an old man's award. It's what creaky old white CEOs brag about when they play golf. Garmin doesn't even count on the Fortune 500 because they are technically based in Switzerland to avoid taxes like other big companies. So, if that's a standard, who really cares?

And the point is, I'm tired of excuses. It's a lame reason not to get something done. The citizens provided for a shiny new airport. The state came through with funds to attract an international flight. Someone needs to close the deal or get out of the way.

[STLguy1]

Regarding STL getting another legacy carrier TATL service, I can see why. Lufthansa averaging over 90 percent full 6 flights a week (RT) on a A330-300 widebody beast with 225 seats including 2 business class sections. I am sure they want to increase even more, but like everyone, they need staffing/pilots and crew to do so.

I can see BA coming in and announcing service to STL to London on the Dreamliner (200-216 seats). Considering that Nashville London on BA load factors are averaging around 70-79 percent on a lower seat capacity plane (also with less BIZ class seats and revenue).

[STLguy1]

Overall, to be considered a F500 company or to even break that distinction is not an easy task and quite an honor.

Is it though? It's an old man's award. It's what creaky old white CEOs brag about when they play golf. Garmin doesn't even count on the Fortune 500 because they are technically based in Switzerland to avoid taxes like other big companies. So, if that's a standard, who really cares?

And the point is, I'm tired of excuses. It's a lame reason not to get something done. The citizens provided for a shiny new airport. The state came through with funds to attract an international flight. Someone needs to close the deal or get out of the way.

Now you're speaking ridiculousness. Don't make accusations of a corporation and / or silly comments about F500 company distinctions. It doesn't fit you.

[Anthony_Hugo98]

Overall, to be considered a F500 company or to even break that distinction is not an easy task and quite an honor.

Is it though? It's an old man's award. It's what creaky old white CEOs brag about when they play golf. Garmin doesn't even count on the Fortune 500 because they are technically based in Switzerland to avoid taxes like other big companies. So, if that's a standard, who really cares?

And the point is, I'm tired of excuses. It's a lame reason not to get something done. The citizens provided for a shiny new airport. The state came through with funds to attract an international flight. Someone needs to close the deal or get out of the way.

You act like that hasn’t been happening? Justin Meyer with the aviation authority has been regularly at airport conferences nationally and internationally doing pretty much everything possible to convince an operator to jump into KC with non-stop euro flights.

Airlines have yet to fully recover from Covid, and we agin circle back to the fact that we don’t have seat guarantees for business travel from a local company, which would be the primary money maker for legacies.

It really isn’t that hard of a concept here, it just seems like you’re not willing to accept that as the answer, even though that’s what it is…

[STLguy1]

And for what it is worth,

I would like to see more domestic nonstops out of the new airport than international at this point of time. Tired of connecting through STL, DEN, and MDW

[Anthony_Hugo98]

And for what it is worth,

I would like to see more domestic nonstops out of the new airport than international at this point of time. Tired of connecting through STL, DEN, and MDW

Absolutely preferred. I’m not flying to Europe quarterly, but I am traveling to the likes of SMF, PIT, or RDU that frequently, and would much prefer non-stops to them. Shit, even a flight to SAN that isn’t seasonal would be stupendous.

[dev49]

St. Louis companies and organizations that committed funding to improve the region’s global economic competitiveness and help secure the flights include: Centene, Emerson, Enterprise Holdings Inc., Greater St. Louis, Inc. Hermann Companies, Hunter Engineering, Nestlé Purina PetCare, St. Louis County Port Authority, St. Louis Lambert International Airport, and the William T. Kemper Foundation.

But, why do you make that sound insurmountable? Most of these are just fillers. Government/Port Authority/Airport/Foundations: We have all those tomorrow. So, we're talking about 3-4 companies. Who is in charge of marketing the airport and a potential nonstop to the large corporations we have here? Garmin doesn't do business in Europe? Cerner? Lockton? Engineering Firms?

That’s the issue. No one here has stepped up. And I don’t even know who would. But until someone does, a flight likely isn’t going to happen. Some organization (Like Greater STL did in STL, Jobs Ohio did for CLE and CVG) is going to have to bring players together.

[beautyfromashes]

And for what it is worth,

I would like to see more domestic nonstops out of the new airport than international at this point of time. Tired of connecting through STL, DEN, and MDW

Why would you connect for an international in St. Louis or Denver or Midway??! That's weird. St. Louis has one nonstop to Europe and there's no way it's cheaper than going through New York or another major hub. I don't think Midway has any nonstops to Europe (maybe Canada?) and Denver has nonstops to Europe but why would you go the wrong way. ::shrug::

[dev49]

And for what it is worth,

I would like to see more domestic nonstops out of the new airport than international at this point of time. Tired of connecting through STL, DEN, and MDW

Why would you connect for an international in St. Louis or Denver or Midway??! That's weird. St. Louis has one nonstop to Europe and there's no way it's cheaper than going through New York or another major hub. I don't think Midway has any nonstops to Europe (maybe Canada?) and Denver has nonstops to Europe but why would you go the wrong way. ::shrug::

They literally said domestic in their post. They want more domestic nonstops so they don’t have to connect through those cities for domestic flights.

[beautyfromashes]

St. Louis companies and organizations that committed funding to improve the region’s global economic competitiveness and help secure the flights include: Centene, Emerson, Enterprise Holdings Inc., Greater St. Louis, Inc. Hermann Companies, Hunter Engineering, Nestlé Purina PetCare, St. Louis County Port Authority, St. Louis Lambert International Airport, and the William T. Kemper Foundation.

But, why do you make that sound insurmountable? Most of these are just fillers. Government/Port Authority/Airport/Foundations: We have all those tomorrow. So, we're talking about 3-4 companies. Who is in charge of marketing the airport and a potential nonstop to the large corporations we have here? Garmin doesn't do business in Europe? Cerner? Lockton? Engineering Firms?

That’s the issue. No one here has stepped up. And I don’t even know who would. But until someone does, a flight likely isn’t going to happen. Some organization (Like Greater STL did in STL, Jobs Ohio did for CLE and CVG) is going to have to bring players together.

But, that's the point. The goal of airport leadership and their marketing team is not just to market to the airlines. They should be building company buy-in, growing a list of companies that would pitch these airlines. One guy with a marketing hat on isn't going to get this done sitting in a skylounge in Paris.

[beautyfromashes]

They literally said domestic in their post. They want more domestic nonstops so they don’t have to connect through those cities for domestic flights.

yes, they did. good night all!

[dev49]

But, why do you make that sound insurmountable? Most of these are just fillers. Government/Port Authority/Airport/Foundations: We have all those tomorrow. So, we're talking about 3-4 companies. Who is in charge of marketing the airport and a potential nonstop to the large corporations we have here? Garmin doesn't do business in Europe? Cerner? Lockton? Engineering Firms?

That’s the issue. No one here has stepped up. And I don’t even know who would. But until someone does, a flight likely isn’t going to happen. Some organization (Like Greater STL did in STL, Jobs Ohio did for CLE and CVG) is going to have to bring players together.

But, that's the point. The goal of airport leadership and their marketing team is not just to market to the airlines. They should be building company buy-in, growing a list of companies that would pitch these airlines. One guy with a marketing hat on isn't going to get this done sitting in a skylounge in Paris.

Airports can only do so much. If you look at every other city our size that got an international flight it wasn’t the airport that got it done. It was the state or someone else putting up the money, since the airports aren’t allowed to, and then businesses guaranteeing tickets.

When you see the announcements it usually isn’t even the airport doing the announcing. It’s whoever actually got the deal done. Greater STL did the press release/event in STL, it wasn’t even at the airport. Jobs Ohio did the one for Cleveland. Nashville’s BA flight was announced at the state capital. The airport can dig into what the airline wants incentive/guarantee wise but since they can’t offer much more than free landing fees, they are at the mercy of everyone else.

[normalthings]

KC can only hope to fill a widebody flight if there are significant connecting opportunities. It will need to be one of the 4 major alliance cities. 50% of Lufthansa St. Louis passengers are connecting on.

50% of any traffic to Frankfurt is moving on to a connection. Not many people are going to Frankfurt for a vacation.

And who are the magical corporations that St. Louis has that everyone is using as an excuse for them to get a nonstop? They have a few Fortune 500's but most are in the high 400s. And just because Cerner and old Sprint aren't headquartered here doesn't mean they aren't sending executives out from here. Panera and their shitty food can't be pushing that much traffic to Europe.

The top destination from KC is the UK with around 90 June PPDEW. These flights require/survive on connecting traffic. So a KC flight to LHR would need 60% connecting traffic to fill up based on current numbers. Obviously LHR-KCI will be stimulated but connecting is a very big piece of the puzzle.

LH and STL have been surprised to see travelers connecting at STL to other points in the Us. It is a very bad experience at their airport and so it might be an opportunity for KCI to drive additional traffic. One of the KCI updates mentioned they added special facilities for inbound international passengers to connect domestically.

[normalthings]

Regarding STL getting another legacy carrier TATL service, I can see why. Lufthansa averaging over 90 percent full 6 flights a week (RT) on a A330-300 widebody beast with 225 seats including 2 business class sections. I am sure they want to increase even more, but like everyone, they need staffing/pilots and crew to do so.

I can see BA coming in and announcing service to STL to London on the Dreamliner (200-216 seats). Considering that Nashville London on BA load factors are averaging around 70-79 percent on a lower seat capacity plane (also with less BIZ class seats and revenue).

Lufthansa is 3 roundtrips per week to STL. Summer was 90% full but fall winter a little lower. LH has not added frequency which is questionable but there is still time to. I think they will eventually.

[STLguy1]

Yes, 3 nonstop but 6 R/T actual in air flights (and I only pointed that out since they are saying inbound and outbound flights are full).

I totally agree with normalthings.

I would like to see us get at least 2x a week to anywhere in EU to get the ball rolling and then see how it does.

Lufthansa using a huge widebody in STL and filling it was, I am sure, in part for the Business Class option which they say is selling out almost always. It was an aggressive entry and, obviously, it has paid off.

[herrfrank]

Couple of data points regarding international US-EU flights:

1. The business class cabin and the freight load provide all of the profit for the flight. Economy class is a wash. If they cannot move a lot of freight or sell seats in J, then it doesn't make sense to fly.

2. The European point must be a decent connection hub. Most US originations prefer to connect at the EU or UK hub, because it makes the return flight easier (US connections require a re-clear of security plus baggage re-check and other indignities). The top euro-hubs also tend to have better lounge infrastructure - showers, open bars, cooked-to-order meals - these are good to have if it is a long connection, like an onward flight to India or Africa. Those often leave late in the day, meaning several hours in the lounge between the US morning arrival and the onward connecting flight.

[GRID]

Yeah they need to shuffle the people in charge of this if they can't get this done. It's jsut ridiculous at this point if Cincinnati & StL are on their 2nd int'l flights and KC can't even get a single one.

Both have big community buy in. STL corps
agreed to large ticket purchase agreements. Ohio agreed to back ticket sales for Cleveland’s new Euro flight. Ohio AND Kentucky are incentivizing Cincinnati’s new London flight.

KC’s major business community has never seemed as vocal about a flight as some of the other Midwestern cities imho.

Is KC’s major business community vocal about much of anything other than playing KS agsint MO for their short term gain?

KC doesn't seem to have much of a business community left that actually cares about the city. And that will keep KC from getting international flights for sure.

Edit, I just want to say that KC still has Hallmark and KC should never forget the one company that didn't bolt for KS and has done so much for the center city.

I was in Crown Center while in town and my god Hallmark is by far KC's company. I tried to imagine that area without Hallmark and all the other stuff they have doe for the city. Luckily they are still doing okay enough to maintain Crown Center at a relatively high level as I have always felt they probably loose money keeping Crown Center going. While KC doesn't have many companies that care about the city, I think Hallmark gets overlooked.