Capping the Loop

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
KC_Ari
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by KC_Ari »

KCPowercat wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 1:27 pm
KC_Ari wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:47 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:56 am I don't see much problem closing Baltimore. Any fear I've voiced of closing any street has zero to do with any car first mentally. It has everything to do with protecting streetcar headways and the already all too often closing of grand which basically takes it out of any traffic flow, which will become a bigger thing once royals are downtown
Agreed. I think the cities stance was to see a traffic study first. The random Grand closures and a few T-Mobile events need to be included in that to be worth anything. The Royals stadium has me slightly less concerned since I recall Sherman saying if they were to do EV, then the freeway access on the east loop would need to be reexamined.
Right but the oak and pnl garages will be used too which would put traffic on grand I'm guessing.
That's why traffic studies during T-Mobile events with Grand closures are key before making any street closure decision. Those are the biggest existing garages a new stadium would use (Not sure if the JE Dunn garage is open to the public.)
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by langosta »

MO recently approved giving $20-30 million iirc and now council has introduced legislation for $10 million
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GRID
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by GRID »

WoodDraw wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:32 am
GRID wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:26 am
WoodDraw wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:19 am

My sigh wasn't directed at you. I agree with you. On grand and the rest.
Gotcha, I guess your post was full of general frustration with the Grand closings haha.
That grand is just randomly closed at any time and no one really seems to know why or if there are rules. Or cares.

But we try to create a park and hntb is like after a million dollar study and multiple hearings, we've decided nothing should change. And everyone is like oh, hmm, that makes sense.
Well like I said, it's typically closed when I'm in town. It makes downtown feel deserted to me. It's a very odd feeling to have what is the widest street in downtown KC just blocked off for no reason with no cars or pedestrians on it for an entire day or more. Never seen that anywhere else. I mean they close the street in front of Cap One arena in DC for like 30 minutes when the stadium lets out and that's it.
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FlippantCitizen
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by FlippantCitizen »

DaveKCMO wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 1:31 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:56 am I don't see much problem closing Baltimore. Any fear I've voiced of closing any street has zero to do with any car first mentally. It has everything to do with protecting streetcar headways and the already all too often closing of grand which basically takes it out of any traffic flow, which will become a bigger thing once royals are downtown
And the not-often-discussed potential for private sector abuse of this new space. It will be managed by a private nonprofit, with heavy control by Cordish/Loews. What could go wrong? (See also the park atop Cosentino's garage)

I personally think it should be managed by private nonprofit given the location (too many issues to expect KCMO Parks to keep control), that sentiment just doesn't extend to the streets. (See also Westport sidewalks)
This is kind of where I'm at. This is going to be a quasi-private enterprise. Creating one double sized block is not going to equate to this magical urban oasis of "green space." This is going to be a space that is going to be utilized and programmed to a significant degree by the private sector. I don't really see it turning into this hub of wide open space for recreation in any case and for the uses it is likely to see some segmenting seems fine to me. Perhaps retractable bollards could be used to close Baltimore and Walnut in the case of particularly intense use during specific times.

We've already turned over the authority to close a major street to the private sector and if we got an agreement that keeps Grand open I could totally live with a street being closed (especially if it is Baltimore). But I really dislike The idea of hierarchy in a street network. Obviously it will exist to some degree but forcing all traffic onto a few streets makes those street all the harder to tame and all the more unpleasant for pedestrians. I submit that it is substantively true that Baltimore, and to a lesser degree Walnut see relatively little car vehicle traffic. But I often use side streets to navigate DT and I know others do as well.

Really any of these plans are such an improvement to what is there now that I have no desire to die on the hill of opposing any one of them in particular. My favorite option would be going all the way to do the best thing for the streetcar and make Main Transit/Bike/Ped only except for local deliveries and garage access. That's not on the table though.
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by WoodDraw »

Who said cordish will control this?

I respect David immensely, and I know he’s been talking about this as a reason to keep the streets open. And I have too if this is the result. But i hope we can fight for better.
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im2kull
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by im2kull »

GRID wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 3:25 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:32 am
GRID wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:26 am

Gotcha, I guess your post was full of general frustration with the Grand closings haha.
That grand is just randomly closed at any time and no one really seems to know why or if there are rules. Or cares.

But we try to create a park and hntb is like after a million dollar study and multiple hearings, we've decided nothing should change. And everyone is like oh, hmm, that makes sense.
Well like I said, it's typically closed when I'm in town. It makes downtown feel deserted to me. It's a very odd feeling to have what is the widest street in downtown KC just blocked off for no reason with no cars or pedestrians on it for an entire day or more. Never seen that anywhere else. I mean they close the street in front of Cap One arena in DC for like 30 minutes when the stadium lets out and that's it.
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by DaveKCMO »

WoodDraw wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 4:51 pm Who said cordish will control this?

I respect David immensely, and I know he’s been talking about this as a reason to keep the streets open. And I have too if this is the result. But i hope we can fight for better.
If you cut a check, you could also be in control!
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by missingkc »

Well, via the state of Missouri and, undoubtedly, Kansas City, you are all writing checks. Your wishes should be taken into regard in the final design of this important addition to the city as well as Cordish's or Loew's.
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by WoodDraw »

DaveKCMO wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:38 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 4:51 pm Who said cordish will control this?

I respect David immensely, and I know he’s been talking about this as a reason to keep the streets open. And I have too if this is the result. But i hope we can fight for better.
If you cut a check, you could also be in control!
Thankfully this isn’t under the master development agreement so we are all in control!
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by beautyfromashes »

Yeah, I hate that argument. Cordish and Loews are immediately getting that money back in increased property values due to the park being there vs a noisy highway. I’m fine with them having influence over the design and use of the park, but this should be a public entity.
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by TheUrbanRoo »

They need to close atleast one street and give one combined bloc. I’d prefer it be Baltimore, but just close one of them atleast. Has to happen for this to be good.
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by WoodDraw »

GRID wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 3:25 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:32 am
GRID wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:26 am

Gotcha, I guess your post was full of general frustration with the Grand closings haha.
That grand is just randomly closed at any time and no one really seems to know why or if there are rules. Or cares.

But we try to create a park and hntb is like after a million dollar study and multiple hearings, we've decided nothing should change. And everyone is like oh, hmm, that makes sense.
Well like I said, it's typically closed when I'm in town. It makes downtown feel deserted to me. It's a very odd feeling to have what is the widest street in downtown KC just blocked off for no reason with no cars or pedestrians on it for an entire day or more. Never seen that anywhere else. I mean they close the street in front of Cap One arena in DC for like 30 minutes when the stadium lets out and that's it.
We need to start differentiating between what is needed for cordish and aeg and what they find convenient.

The police will have to park a car there, but like it’s the least they could do.

I’m okay with some paid amenities in the park, but they have to bid them out and allow everyone to pay in. I’ll fight this thing to the death if one section becomes a cordish dog park.
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by TheUrbanRoo »

“ Update: KC officials soon will decide whether to allocate $10M in cash from the city's Convention and Sports Complex Fund in support of the South Loop Link. Per proposal, the funds would match $28.6M federal and state awards (along w/ $18.6M in private pledges made to date).”

https://twitter.com/kcbj_thomas/status/ ... RPpXS0iFBA
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by Jblanco »

I keep hating this south loop cap project more and more.

It's useless. It will be full of criminals and insane homeless.

I saw 2 homeless at a streetcar stop digging around in the trash bags they had. People waiting for the streetcar were as far away from them as they could physically be. It was like looking at a 3rd world country.

They can't even keep Grand open! They are inane boobs.

The north loop is the issue that the city should be doing everything to resolve it.
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by Noahfleshman »

^This guy gets it
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by beautyfromashes »

Cordish will just write off their “donation” along with every expense they can possibly find when they actually do have to pay their first $ of tax to this city. Entire charges for district plant watering and security and maintenance, etc. it’ll be a tax boondoggle. They actually should charge them tax on the pieces they “control”.
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FlippantCitizen
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by FlippantCitizen »

Guess we’ll just not invest in any park space, transit, etc. whatsoever until there’s not a single person left unhoused. I can’t fathom the race to the bottom mentality some of you guys have. Let’s just pour concrete in the swimming pools while we’re at it because sometimes people go there that are “scary.”
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Jblanco
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by Jblanco »

FlippantCitizen wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 3:31 pm Guess we’ll just not invest in any park space, transit, etc. whatsoever until there’s not a single person left unhoused. I can’t fathom the race to the bottom mentality some of you guys have. Let’s just pour concrete in the swimming pools while we’re at it because sometimes people go there that are “scary.”


Nah, just put the crazies in jail and keep them there.

I can't fathom the current mentality of allowing insane, evil and/or drug addicted individuals to wreak havoc and murder on our society. There will come a day when it will no longer be tolerated and then those in charge that have allowed it to happen for decades will pay heavily.

I like parks, this is just the wrong place and it is almost impossible to work here.
If the streets south of Truman were actually developed with new projects there would be no need at all for the cap.
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by TheLastGentleman »

FlippantCitizen wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 3:31 pm Guess we’ll just not invest in any park space, transit, etc. whatsoever until there’s not a single person left unhoused. I can’t fathom the race to the bottom mentality some of you guys have. Let’s just pour concrete in the swimming pools while we’re at it because sometimes people go there that are “scary.”
The same people would probably oppose any assistance to homeless folks too.

It’s like they’re waiting for some sort of…alternative fix. A final conclusion, perhaps? A last solution, if you will? Hmm, there’s a specific term they have for it…
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Re: Capping the Loop

Post by Cratedigger »

Jblanco wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 5:16 pm
FlippantCitizen wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 3:31 pm Guess we’ll just not invest in any park space, transit, etc. whatsoever until there’s not a single person left unhoused. I can’t fathom the race to the bottom mentality some of you guys have. Let’s just pour concrete in the swimming pools while we’re at it because sometimes people go there that are “scary.”


Nah, just put the crazies in jail and keep them there.

I can't fathom the current mentality of allowing insane, evil and/or drug addicted individuals to wreak havoc and murder on our society. There will come a day when it will no longer be tolerated and then those in charge that have allowed it to happen for decades will pay heavily.

I like parks, this is just the wrong place and it is almost impossible to work here.
If the streets south of Truman were actually developed with new projects there would be no need at all for the cap.
I have found this graph and linked article fascinating.

Image

But come on people. Let's have this discussion somewhere else
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