Capping the Loop

[AlkaliAxel]

co-op with KCK is important, it's literally just a made up boundary that separates it from being KCMO. We should act as such. I think KCK will see benefits from readapting the 70 and converting the 670 to become the new 70.. but yeah there will have to be some re working of interstates or you'll just piss people off which still lowers QOL.

We can't balk or stop on north loop because of KCK though

[phuqueue]

Maintaining the city grid is key to better walkability. Look what has happened in Westport with superblocks and walkability.

I didn't mean to revive the Walnut discussion, just to point to it as an example, but the idea that the key to walkability is letting cars run through the middle of what is supposed to be a park is bonkers. A superblock that acts as a physical barrier to reaching the street on the opposite side of the block will hinder walkability, but this obviously is not true of a public park that you can just walk across wherever. An active roadway in the middle of that park, on the other hand, hurts walkability through the park.

In any case, much of the discussion around Walnut was about the effect on traffic, which is why I raised it as an example. If you have other reasons you want to keep Walnut open that are wholly unrelated to the effect closing it would have on traffic, that is great and definitely relevant to a discussion of whether or not to keep Walnut open but not really relevant to the point AA raised and that I was agreeing with, that many people on this forum worry too much about accommodating drivers.

[kas1]

I'm sorry, but much of what's posted in the last couple pages is nonsense. I've lived in dense cities with good transit and good street grids where traffic flows smoothly precisely because of the fact that the transit system is good enough that people don't need to drive and only do it when conditions make it better than walking or using transit. I've also lived in dense cities with dubious transit and awful street grids, and it's an absolute pain in the ass to go anywhere because both the streets and the transit systems lack sufficient capacity. There's a big difference between pedestrianizing some streets and randomly cutting off streets here and there so that traffic constantly has to detour around obstacles. What Kansas City has done is the latter. There aren't very many through streets remaining downtown, and chopping Walnut in half will just force even more traffic onto them. When your entire transit system operates in mixed traffic you cannot afford to sabotage the street grid, and doing so in the name of promoting transit is self-defeating and completely insane. Like I've literally had experiences of walking down a sidewalk while keeping pace with city buses stuck in gridlock while adjacent streets sit empty because they only exist for a few blocks at a time and don't actually take you anywhere. That's Kansas City's future if it keeps densifying while building mixed-traffic transit and superblocks all over the place.

[dukuboy1]

closing Walnut I can understand but fail to see the overall logic, especially when you just opened Walnut all the way through to the City Market to 3rd St. Plus the park space created by capping the 670 should be a mix of some buildings and a nice park. But it is an Urban greenspace/park. It's not Central Park with vast open spaces. It's more of a pocket park in practicality. The most important of the cap is creating a seamless expanse of space that makes you feel connected completely as you go South, no trench removes the notion of a barrier as well as physically addressing that previous barrier. I think the streets that flow through should be designed with pedestrian sidewalks and such for more people on feet utilizing the area and less for traffic. But there is a way to accommodate both and have the best win/win possible. Removing the barrier and creating a new seamless feel is the biggest win of it all.

As for the North Loop a removal would be great and infill with a normal street grid buildings and development to bring the River Market into downtown seamlessly. again removing the barrier. But for that to happen a major, and I mean major, re-do of the existing highway loop system on the East side of downtown will need to be done. It's a freaking mess over there now and I suspect the cost to fix it will be more than removing the North Loop and capping the South Loop put together. Yes some access will exist for getting traffic off the highway and into the new downtown area created by removing the North loop. So you can still access downtown there and even get across East to West via regulars streets and not the Highway. But the rest as it goes to Hwy 71 or East to 70 is just a cluster F. If they can put in place a plan to divert that traffic effectively then you look at removing the North Loop, otherwise it is going no where

[FangKC]

One can create a good pedestrian experience and still allow traffic on a street like Walnut.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/26+Fr ... -85.175457

https://www.google.com/maps/place/26+F ... -85.175457

[KCPowercat]

I would be intrigued to see designs detailing how the east loop could be redesigned to be more effective in the face of a north loop removal and also capping it somehow

[grovester]

What the east loop is currently experiencing is the loss of both the north loop and the Buck bridge.

Once the bridge is back open we can get rid of the north loop and the east loop traffic will be fine.

[KCPowercat]

The north loop and buck bridge are fully open? Do you mean the west loop northbound?

I don't get on east side often so no idea what is currently happening I just know it's a lot of lane switching in short order

[FlippantCitizen]

My opposition to closing Walnut relates to the fact that it would divert more traffic to the Main where our mixed traffic tram runs not that I favor cars and that seemed to be the concern of most. I agree with kas1. Keep the grid connected and reconnect it everywhere possible that it's already been broken. Disburse the traffic instead of funneling it onto overworked arterial and main streets. KC's grid is our biggest infrastructural asset in my opinion and we disregard that and break it constantly creating streets to nowhere.

[phuqueue]

I'm sorry, but much of what's posted in the last couple pages is nonsense. I've lived in dense cities with good transit and good street grids where traffic flows smoothly precisely because of the fact that the transit system is good enough that people don't need to drive and only do it when conditions make it better than walking or using transit. I've also lived in dense cities with dubious transit and awful street grids, and it's an absolute pain in the ass to go anywhere because both the streets and the transit systems lack sufficient capacity. There's a big difference between pedestrianizing some streets and randomly cutting off streets here and there so that traffic constantly has to detour around obstacles. What Kansas City has done is the latter. There aren't very many through streets remaining downtown, and chopping Walnut in half will just force even more traffic onto them. When your entire transit system operates in mixed traffic you cannot afford to sabotage the street grid, and doing so in the name of promoting transit is self-defeating and completely insane. Like I've literally had experiences of walking down a sidewalk while keeping pace with city buses stuck in gridlock while adjacent streets sit empty because they only exist for a few blocks at a time and don't actually take you anywhere. That's Kansas City's future if it keeps densifying while building mixed-traffic transit and superblocks all over the place.

Maybe in Europe you lived in a dense city with both good transit and easy traffic, but in the US, the densest cities tend to have the worst traffic, regardless of the quality of transit (Boston and DC rank surprisingly low on that bad traffic list, but they were worse pre-pandemic; given DC Metro's rolling stock debacle, I doubt that transit has much to do with their improved traffic ranking).

I think it’s true basically everywhere that people only drive “when conditions make it better than walking or using transit.” Obviously, people always choose the mode that is “better” than others, but most American cities are designed to make driving "better" for most trips for most people (this is certainly true of KC). Car culture is, by and large, not a result of personal choices, it's a result of an entrenched system of incentives that encourage driving and discourage other modes. Nobody is talking about “randomly cutting off streets here and there,” but a preoccupation with traffic is maybe not the greatest response to proposals to close Walnut (a specific street closure proposed for a specific reason, not a “random” proposal to arbitrarily shut down streets all over the city). Your point about shunting traffic into transit corridors is well taken, but running the streetcar or buses in mixed traffic is also a political choice, not a natural inevitability. It isn’t necessary to share transit lanes with cars, but we do that in lieu of depriving drivers of any road capacity. I don’t point this out in some naive belief that there is any political will today to immediately reserve that capacity exclusively for transit, just as I don't believe there is currently political will to rip out the West Loop or other urban freeways. But I think it is important to challenge this conciliatory attitude toward cars, because if even the people on the supposedly urbanist web forum can't stop wringing their hands over KC's non-existent traffic problem, nobody else will either.

[KCPowercat]

Not diving back into it I stated my reasons pages ago not related to vehicle traffic. Sorry I brought it back up

[AlkaliAxel]

On KCUR podcast, Brian Platt seems indicate they're planning to eventually remove/modify the entire loop except for the West loop

[AlkaliAxel]

Kinda goes without being said- but this *has* to be done by summer 2026 now. Has to. No excuses, no moaning, this has to be done.

[Cratedigger]

Just for reference, this was the project timeline for Klyde Warren

The initial feasibility study for the Park was conducted in 2004. In June 2006, the Woodall Rodgers Park Foundation unveiled the Park’s original design and three years later announced that Archer Western won the project’s construction contract. Four months after the announcement, construction of the Park began in October 2009 and 36 months later the Park opened in October 2012.

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ipd/project_pr ... _park.aspx

Going to quote this again, because these projects are very complicated and take time. A 2026 completion when the funding is not confirmed and the engineering and design phases are not completed is extremely accelerated.

The 2nd highway deck park in Dallas is underway right now. Funding/planning began in 2017 and the park is set to open in 2024. TxDOT began actual construction work in 2020.

https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2 ... de-warren/

[Cratedigger]

Don't get me wrong, I would love for this to be done. And I do think this announcement accelerates the timeline. It likely starts before the 2025 construction start date originally announced. But it isn't a for sure that this is watch party ready by 2026.

[AlkaliAxel]

Don't get me wrong, I would love for this to be done. And I do think this announcement accelerates the timeline. It likely starts before the 2025 construction start date originally announced. But it isn't a for sure that this is watch party ready by 2026.

Gotta get it done. Any avenue for funding that they can get. Maybe state chips in more now, maybe Feds help us out because they want country to look good for the WC. Maybe private sector steps up more now. Gotta find a way.

[dukuboy1]

I’d love to see it done, and agree with your ideas of state, federal, and private funding as well as coordination to get it accomplished but I fear it is a BIG long shot to get it done. To much of a political maze to navigate still for funding let alone the design & logistics of the build & such. I’ll never say never but chance are slim to none and it appears slim is heading to the door…

[AlkaliAxel]

Don't get me wrong, I would love for this to be done. And I do think this announcement accelerates the timeline. It likely starts before the 2025 construction start date originally announced. But it isn't a for sure that this is watch party ready by 2026.

That wasn't the announced start date. That's what one writer was guessing. Platt & Lucas are saying 12-18 months. So who knows, but my guess is somewhere closer to Platt's range now because of the World Cup.

[Cratedigger]

Don't get me wrong, I would love for this to be done. And I do think this announcement accelerates the timeline. It likely starts before the 2025 construction start date originally announced. But it isn't a for sure that this is watch party ready by 2026.

That wasn't the announced start date. That's what one writer was guessing. Platt & Lucas are saying 12-18 months. So who knows, but my guess is somewhere closer to Platt's range now because of the World Cup.

It’s what Chris Handzel, an associate vice president at HNTB, which is leading the current feasibility/design phase and also conducted the previous feasibility study, said. There’s also a federal environmental review that still needs to be done and the park’s own grant applications currently indicate a 2025 construction start. According to Handzel.

He does say that the timeline could be accelerated based on the design build approach taken. Not sure exactly what that looks like, but could mean the project is phased in a way where some but not all is completed by 2026. And/or an abbreviated community engagement period.

Again, I hope it’s ready ASAP. Platt and Q are going to be aggressive. Good - they need to be. These projects are complicated and take a lot of time. Historically KC’s municipal government isn’t known for speed…

[NEgoofyfoot]

Hey! New to the forum, 1st time poster. I'm originally from Omaha and moved to KC last year, and I've been lurking on the forum since lol. I was back home last weekend, and they had the Grand Opening for the Gene Leahy Mall in downtown, besides all the oohing and aahing, I couldn't help but think about how it was a great inspiration for the loop cap! It's roughly the same size and has truly transformed Downtown Omaha!

https://www.eomahaforums.com/viewtopic. ... start=1840

Looking forward to some great insight and hilarious commentary!!