P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

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KCPowercat
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by KCPowercat »

We do need a Christmas mart

This is a Christmas themed bar popup. Music, movies, drinks, decorations. It's very gram experience focused.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by WoodDraw »

KCPowercat wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:32 pm We do need a Christmas mart

This is a Christmas themed bar popup. Music, movies, drinks, decorations. It's very gram experience focused.
Okay so it won't spill outside into the district itself?
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by KCPowercat »

I don't believe so but given the setup of the live block it would be possible.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by DColeKC »

WoodDraw wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:00 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:32 pm We do need a Christmas mart

This is a Christmas themed bar popup. Music, movies, drinks, decorations. It's very gram experience focused.
Okay so it won't spill outside into the district itself?
It will spill into the live block as far as some decor this year with the goal being to go bigger next year. From what I'm told, this all came together last minute.
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wahoowa
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by wahoowa »

shouldn't we hope that the restaurants aren't vacant next year...?
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by DColeKC »

wahoowa wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:32 pm shouldn't we hope that the restaurants aren't vacant next year...?
The space they're in this year will just temporarily convert to a Miracle Pop-up next year even with the full time tenant back open.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposa t

Post by flyingember »

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:10 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:04 pmPlease stop.
For real. This site is my escape, keep the politics to the political thread and leave the rest of the subs to their subject.
EVERYTHING about development is politics. You’re escaping to a world of politics in every single thread

Just looking at P&L
The politics of getting rail transit took using a specific funding vote method that led to lawsuits.
The district was built by tearing down buildings, which connects to the politics of historic tax credits and historic preservation
Biking has politicians in support and those against. If we want better bike lanes next to P&L it will take politics
Tax credits like the district has in droves involves politics
Zoning, road closures during construction, all of that is politics.
Capping the loop, politics is heavily involved.
Alcohol laws that require the live district to allow open containers is because of politics
The discussion over holding up three light over balconies is politics
Parking minimums/maximums is politics

Even something as mundane as choosing a tenant is politics. The type of business someone will rent to connects to their politics.

A large amount of decisions in business come down to “I don’t like that guy” and there’s a 100% chance that politics comes into that.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposa t

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

flyingember wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:55 pm
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:10 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:04 pmPlease stop.
For real. This site is my escape, keep the politics to the political thread and leave the rest of the subs to their subject.
EVERYTHING about development is politics. You’re escaping to a world of politics in every single thread

Just looking at P&L
The politics of getting rail transit took using a specific funding vote method that led to lawsuits.
The district was built by tearing down buildings, which connects to the politics of historic tax credits and historic preservation
Biking has politicians in support and those against. If we want better bike lanes next to P&L it will take politics
Tax credits like the district has in droves involves politics
Zoning, road closures during construction, all of that is politics.
Capping the loop, politics is heavily involved.
Alcohol laws that require the live district to allow open containers is because of politics
The discussion over holding up three light over balconies is politics
Parking minimums/maximums is politics

Even something as mundane as choosing a tenant is politics. The type of business someone will rent to connects to their politics.

A large amount of decisions in business come down to “I don’t like that guy” and there’s a 100% chance that politics comes into that.
Oh piss off. The discussion about a specific site proposal doesn’t need to devolve into fucking wage debates for restaurant employees.
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DColeKC
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposa t

Post by DColeKC »

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:28 pm
flyingember wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:55 pm
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:10 pm
For real. This site is my escape, keep the politics to the political thread and leave the rest of the subs to their subject.
EVERYTHING about development is politics. You’re escaping to a world of politics in every single thread

Just looking at P&L
The politics of getting rail transit took using a specific funding vote method that led to lawsuits.
The district was built by tearing down buildings, which connects to the politics of historic tax credits and historic preservation
Biking has politicians in support and those against. If we want better bike lanes next to P&L it will take politics
Tax credits like the district has in droves involves politics
Zoning, road closures during construction, all of that is politics.
Capping the loop, politics is heavily involved.
Alcohol laws that require the live district to allow open containers is because of politics
The discussion over holding up three light over balconies is politics
Parking minimums/maximums is politics

Even something as mundane as choosing a tenant is politics. The type of business someone will rent to connects to their politics.

A large amount of decisions in business come down to “I don’t like that guy” and there’s a 100% chance that politics comes into that.
Oh piss off. The discussion about a specific site proposal doesn’t need to devolve into fucking wage debates for restaurant employees.
I approve this message.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposa t

Post by flyingember »

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:28 pm
Oh piss off. The discussion about a specific site proposal doesn’t need to devolve into fucking wage debates for restaurant employees.
The original discussion was they though they couldn’t hire enough workers for two spaces.

So if hiring and wages aren’t relevant then why were they relevant to a discussion on occupancy?
DColeKC wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:41 pm This is similar to their long term plan but staffing concerns this year forced them to do one location in PNL. Up until 3 weeks ago they were going to use 2 spaces.
Being juvenile in response is a classic sign you have no argument against what I put so you lash out instead.
I’ll apply Hanlon’s razor to what you put and move on.

If you don’t want a discussion on wages in a discussion on hiring as it relates to retail maybe don’t reply next time.
Retail occupancy as a topic is so intertwined in the topic of wages that to try and separate the two is impossible.

Do we want to welcome a business that pays their workers so badly that they help them sign up for welfare like too many do? The discussion of $15/hour should be tied closely to downtown retail. The city shouldn’t be supporting the development with tax incentives if places that move in aren’t willing to pay a living wage.

I don’t care who they are, we should ALWAYS look at how well they pay.

And back to the original point, if they paid well they could fill two spaces easily because of record job changes among retail workers. There’s a 0% chance they can’t find enough workers to their standard with how many bus lines run within blocks of P&L.

Not spending $100 or more per month providing parking is money they can use to pay workers better. At $100 parking is like a 5% raise over locating elsewhere in the city. Just not providing parking means they can provide a competitive wage with everything else about the business being equal to others. It’s not much but 5% is dramatically more than the raise most minimum wage workers get.


And you say that’s politics. Of course it’s politics. My tax money is subsidizing P&L and I should be able to comment on the quality of retailers that move in.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by DColeKC »

So I’m not sure where all this is coming from. If you think they decided to turn down a opportunity to make a few hundred grand in 6 weeks because they don’t want to pay people a good wage, you’re crazy.

Not sure what fictional source you’re into but there’s just not a lot of people out there available and willing to work in the service industry at the moment. Every restaurant in town is still understaffed and actively trying to hire. Including the ones paying above the average. Also, I have known hundreds of downtown service industry employees and I’ve never known a single one of them to utilize the bus, so not sure what being in close proximity to the bus line does for the industry in KC.

Your tax dollars do help subsidize the district and you should have input but remember, the city and the developer are being subsidized, not the tenants. You have zero say as a tax payer what they pay or how they operate. You do as a consumer and I’m sure you choose wisely where to spend your money.

I love how you say there’s “0% chance they can’t find workers”. Surely you inserted how ridiculous that sounds. But I’m sure you know their business better than they do.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by wahoowa »

booooooorrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing.

mr green background do you have any suspicion that anything other than a bar/restaurant is going in to any of the current vacant p&L spots (bar louie, mixx, saucer, hotel karaoke, leinenkugels if its vacant, etc)??
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by DColeKC »

wahoowa wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:26 pm booooooorrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing.

mr green background do you have any suspicion that anything other than a bar/restaurant is going in to any of the current vacant p&L spots (bar louie, mixx, saucer, hotel karaoke, leinenkugels if its vacant, etc)??
Yes. Coffee. Retail and others.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by wahoowa »

a belated thank you for the tipstering.

you mentioned miracle taking over the leinie's location around the holidays again next year. is leinie's a purely spring/summer seasonal model for the foreseeable future? was that always the plan (pre-covid)? i don't remember them being closed for winters before, but obviously their patio buildout is the big draw so i can see that making some sense i guess. and i'm not sure i would have noticed before covid because i didn't consider going there too often (even though i walk past it multiple times a day)
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by DColeKC »

wahoowa wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:01 pm a belated thank you for the tipstering.

you mentioned miracle taking over the leinie's location around the holidays again next year. is leinie's a purely spring/summer seasonal model for the foreseeable future? was that always the plan (pre-covid)? i don't remember them being closed for winters before, but obviously their patio buildout is the big draw so i can see that making some sense i guess. and i'm not sure i would have noticed before covid because i didn't consider going there too often (even though i walk past it multiple times a day)
The Leinies branded venue failed to catch on in this market. Not a shocking revelation there. From what I understand, that space won't be open regular hours and is going to be used as private event and or flexible space. Open for big events like the B12 tourney etc. Seasonal Pop-Ups are an option as well.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by wahoowa »

that makes a lot of sense. having some dedicated space for a higher frequency turnover of concepts seems like a win-win at least in the short/medium term. miracle definitely seemed to get butts in seats in p&L. probably asking a lot to come up with a whole other pop-up that does numbers like it appeared to, but even two or three concepts like that over the course of the year could help inch things back towards normal down here... bums me out to see visitors try every single door on walnut from saucer down to ice house on some random weeknight only to find that none are open.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by KCPowercat »

Cordish should make a space into a popup kitchen type thing and let new concepts give it a go.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by wahoowa »

not sure how much sense that makes given the rent premium i assume cordish commands. plus they would be relative latecomers in the area to that idea, between parlor in the crossroads and strang hall (or whatever it's called) in the building formerly known as city center. not the best negotiating position for cordish to be in i would assume. it would definitely be cool on an interim basis for the neighborhood but i assume cordish would rather sit on a vacant spot until market rate demand came knocking (see The Corner That Never Was And May Never Be on the NW side of 14/main)

i do think it works for boozy popups. it's anecdotal so the best kind of data, but saw a bunch of loud happy glittery people at other p&L spots before/after their alloted time at miracle.

probably doesn't make sense given the "district" of experiential stuff they are already building out on baltimore and i assume a much tighter supply of interested operators in these times, but doing some axe throwy/ mini golfy/ etc type thing in one of the main vacant spots could be a kind of cool temporary space user along those same lines.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by KCPowercat »

yeah it only works if they give a rent break as a goodwill type thing. They seem to prefer empty storefronts though.
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Re: P&L District: 13th & Walnut Site Proposal

Post by DColeKC »

KCPowercat wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:36 pm yeah it only works if they give a rent break as a goodwill type thing. They seem to prefer empty storefronts though.
I can’t think of a single instance where they turned away a leasing opportunity just because they’d like to keep something empty. Even the 14th and Main location was actively shown and pitched despite knowing it may be a future residential property.

Any type of pop up financial structure would be treated as a partnership. Typically 50/50 on revenue and expenses.
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