Rail to KCI - 2023

[DaveKCMO]

Station naming also affects system legibility. You'll never see them sold for KC Streetcar. Use intersections, neighborhoods, or landmarks.

[alejandro46]

Here is my plan for rail to KCI. A public-private partnership light rail line. Could we bring in enough money with land development rights, naming rights, etc that we could build this without much public money? If we could bring the cost down to say just needing $10 million per year, the city could easily find that in the couch cushions of the city's $2 billion per year budget.

Brightline in Florida is building a private passenger rail line because they have the development rights at the stations so lets use that idea. So near many of the stations on my proposed route, the city will give the developer the land through eminent domain or whatever (marked in yellow on my maps below) and make that land as valuable as possible by having zero parking minimums and no density maximums so that land would be worth a ton to the right developer.

surely station names could be worth something too, seems some other systems have sold station naming rights for millions. "Walmart Zona Rosa Station", Target @ Metro North Station, Coca Cola Station @ KCI terminal, etc. I'd guess those could bring in millions per year.


Here is the route:

Segment 1: With this serving the airport, find a way to have airport revenues partially fund this section.
(1) KCI Terminal
(2) KCI Car Rental
(3) KCI long term parking
(4) KCI expo - serves hotels, expo center, and land to be given to developer.

Segment 2: Use highway right of way to get from the KCI area to Briarcliff. 29, 152, and 169.
(5) Tiffany Springs
(6) Zona Rosa (build a pedestrian bridge across the highway to station)
(7) Twin Creeks
(8) Metro North
(9) unnamed station
(10) Englewood


Segment 3: Briarcliff to the riverfront. build on the levee. Swing around NKC to have stops where big development opportunities exist.
(11) Briarcliff
(12) Downtown NKC
(13) NKC Hospital - Harrah's
(14) Riverront: Connection to Streetcar and Current KC soccer stadium

Segment 4: River to Union Station. Something I've never seen proposed before is using the Paseo right of way. This is a street with massive potential. Build this section as a cut and cover subway. (Green part of line indicates the subway section), then use the railway corridor to get over to union station.

(15) 11th/Paseo: Area has MASSIVE development potential and brings downtown east. Walkable to Royals east village stadium
(16) 18th/Vine:
(17) Union Station: connections to streetcar and Amtrak

I generally agree with this. This land is going to be worth a lot along a transit route, it's logical to try and fund rail with TOD. I don't think we should be using Highway ROW. There is not enough room without doing significant work on the highway itself and it does not connect neighborhoods and communities. It's also not pleasant for riders to be right by cars whizzing by at 75 mph.

A dedicated ROW streetcar type vehicle right up Burlington and North Oak, then west on Barry Road to Zona Rosa, and then North on Congress to Ambassador connects the most locations and seems like it has good potential for density. Charge $5 or $10 per rider for the whole trip and smaller amounts for shorter trips, I think it would be well used. Plus no need for additional parking leveraging Zona and Metro North to draw from outlying communities.

The key to all this is again regional funding. Put it to a vote in Clay and Plate counties that as part of a larger regional tax they would get KCI airport rail, JoCo, Truman Sports Complex, KCK rail, etc. in the next 25 years,

[langosta]

I would suggest using grade separated ROW like the Line Creek ROW where possible. You can achieve much higher speeds and reduced construction costs. DO NOT USE NORTH OAK AND BARRY LOL. That is a 1.5 hour trip in the making

Also use HOA instead of Bond to reduce mileage (unless you think that’s an 80 mph segment with no stops then it’s faster).

[DaveKCMO]

$1.5-2 billion, I promise you, regardless of the alignment.

The '08 plan was $900 million for 12 miles. MSE is $375 million for 3.5 miles. US to MCI is 20 miles.

Be thinking about where that comes from...

[hartliss]

Honest question....does anything materialize out of this outside of expanded bus service? It seems like a mammoth lift to do anything more - with costs, counties, funding mechanisms, etc.

Granted I took this only once but LAX's set up was fairly convenient and easy: https://www.flylax.com/flyaway-bus

[DaveKCMO]

Honest question....does anything materialize out of this outside of expanded bus service? It seems like a mammoth lift to do anything more - with costs, counties, funding mechanisms, etc.

A new revenue source -- rather than pretending you can use the existing ones, which already pay for citywide bus service. The city has another 1/8-cent they can add to the 3/8-cent, but that's a tax increase (and still not enough to build light rail to MCI).

FlyAway is an excellent model for our region. Premium express bus service from multiple parts of the metro, acknowledging that's kinda how the airport's market actually is.

[hartliss]

Honest question....does anything materialize out of this outside of expanded bus service? It seems like a mammoth lift to do anything more - with costs, counties, funding mechanisms, etc.

A new revenue source -- rather than pretending you can use the existing ones, which already pay for citywide bus service. The city has another 1/8-cent they can add to the 3/8-cent, but that's a tax increase (and still not enough to build light rail to MCI).

FlyAway is an excellent model for our region. Premium express bus service from multiple parts of the metro, acknowledging that's kinda how the airport's market actually is.

Thanks Dave, good to have that context.

[TheUrbanRoo]

They’re really publicizing and pushing the transit to the airport concept. It’s not like the others that have just floated around as ideas.

[SouthKC_Citizen]

Thanks for the consolidation. To my untrained eye the 2023 plan to KCI does look pretty similar to Clay’s 2016 sketch

Can someone educate me on why our city absolutely brushed Clay Chastain off and quite honestly demonized him? Like, it just seems like we are slowly implementing/proposing everything he wanted. If we didn’t brush him off we could’ve had a light rail system years ago to and from the airport, and the stadiums ready for use in 2026. If we did this earlier on we could’ve saved money on construction cost - but no, why would we listen to Clay from Virginia.

[DaveKCMO]

Thanks for the consolidation. To my untrained eye the 2023 plan to KCI does look pretty similar to Clay’s 2016 sketch

Can someone educate me on why our city absolutely brushed Clay Chastain off and quite honestly demonized him? Like, it just seems like we are slowly implementing/proposing everything he wanted. If we didn’t brush him off we could’ve had a light rail system years ago to and from the airport, and the stadiums ready for use in 2026. If we did this earlier on we could’ve saved money on construction cost - but no, why would we listen to Clay from Virginia.

Meh. He's a quack who refused to build a coalition.

We had a chance to get a light rail system to the airport in the 70s -- official, a fraction of current cost, and more federally funded than any proposal today -- and all we had to do was issue bonds. That's the failure I point to.

[alejandro46]

I would suggest using grade separated ROW like the Line Creek ROW where possible. You can achieve much higher speeds and reduced construction costs. DO NOT USE NORTH OAK AND BARRY LOL. That is a 1.5 hour trip in the making

Also use HOA instead of Bond to reduce mileage (unless you think that’s an 80 mph segment with no stops then it’s faster).

The line creek ROW is in the middle of the woods. The ridership from DT to the airport is not high enough to demand a $1B light rail. Look at DIA light rail has underperformed ridership significantly. You need to increase the walk-shed in exchange for speed. This also will better support denser development. Installing smart traffic lights and dedicated lanes for transit is a fine medium between full grade seperation and our current system.

FWIW, somehow Besançon, France constructed their tramway for EUR $17M per mile so you get the idea of what I'm thinking (not that we could get near that figure) but just so you understand my thinking. **Note that I believe those may be in 2014 prices.

Besançon's tramway might have been low cost (€17 million/km), yet it doesn't look "cheap" IRL, but rather sober: clear enrobé (bitumen conglomerate) and wild grass dominate the platform outside of the historic center, but granite curbs are used everywhere.

https://twitter.com/ChittiMarco/status/ ... 2884478984

And it goes around quite fast in the more suburban sections

https://twitter.com/ChittiMarco/status/ ... 80193?s=20

https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/201 ... his%20fall.

[kcjak]

I studied in Besancon in the 90s and they had an incredible BRT system that was supposedly one of the most robust in the country. Even 30+ years ago it was incredibly efficient and completely changed my outlook on public transportation. Outside of downtown most stops had dedicated loading/unloading platforms separate from traffic and at major intersections traffic lights prioritized buses. Trips were amazingly quick and easy.

I most recently visited Besancon in 2016 and the tram follows most of the BRT route outside of downtown so ROW was already largely in place. In the central city a major bridge crossing the river is now dedicated to the tram and pedestrians. Ticketing at stations was easy and you could even buy tickets to local attractions at the same kiosk as tram/bus tickets. They moved the TGV stop from the downtown station to the city fringe, which requires a short trip on a shuttle train to the downtown station, which then can be used as a transition to other trains, buses or the tram.

I'd love to see BRT (*real* BRT) to KCI in time for the World Cup and then transition to streetcar/light rail at some point down the road.

[TheUrbanRoo]

I'd love to see BRT (*real* BRT) to KCI in time for the World Cup and then transition to streetcar/light rail at some point down the road.

I think that’s the play and what’s gonna end up happening.

[smh]

It has been said above, but the problem with even a BRT line is there simply isn't the ridership demand between the airport and downtown for that level of infrastructure. There also isn't a meaningful congestion problem for transit today, so there is little incentive to use the expense of BRT to "solve". I want a nice regional heavy or light rail system as much as the next person, but the fact is KC is so sprawled and the downtown so weak as a regional center that it is very hard to justify any increased level of service based on ridership.

That said, if City Hall wanted to subsidize an express line to the airport because of a belief/understanding that it would increase the competitiveness of downtown in the future then perhaps that makes sense. But like Dave has said, if it is funded out of the existing funding stream, you're basically robbing KCMO residents of higher quality bus service in the core to pay for a handful of riders between the airport and downtown.

[KCPowercat]

Yeah I'd love this and want it to happen it's just not logistically there and don't want to rob any more funding from our current bus service.

[GRID]

It has been said above, but the problem with even a BRT line is there simply isn't the ridership demand between the airport and downtown for that level of infrastructure. There also isn't a meaningful congestion problem for transit today, so there is little incentive to use the expense of BRT to "solve". I want a nice regional heavy or light rail system as much as the next person, but the fact is KC is so sprawled and the downtown so weak as a regional center that it is very hard to justify any increased level of service based on ridership.

That said, if City Hall wanted to subsidize an express line to the airport because of a belief/understanding that it would increase the competitiveness of downtown in the future then perhaps that makes sense. But like Dave has said, if it is funded out of the existing funding stream, you're basically robbing KCMO residents of higher quality bus service in the core to pay for a handful of riders between the airport and downtown.

Exactly. You would have VERY low ridership on a full blown BRT line to KCI and in the process you would actually make the trip considerably slower between Downtown and KCI because of all the added stops.

There is no reason to spend 50-100 million or more on fancy BRT stops along I -29 etc. Just run coach buses (or even just basic city buses with luggage racks) every 15-30 minutes from KCI to downtown. I will never understand why this is so hard.

There are so many other places where major transit infrastructure investment would be better utilized and have a much high ROI. Spend that hundred million that would have gone to KCI BRT on another streetcar extension or a new streetcar line or better urban bus service.

[KCPowercat]

It's hard because as been stated before how much parking revenue KCI gets. Add on rental car companies who built the big new RCF don't want to see alternatives.

[smh]

It's hard because as been stated before how much parking revenue KCI gets. Add on rental car companies who built the big new RCF don't want to see alternatives.

I feel like we've heard this other places, but do we know this to be the case at KCI? (Maybe we do?) I feel like a lot of people today from downtown are taking Uber to the airport, and even if they are driving, we're still talking a relative handful of people (hence the weak demand for a transit line) which means any dent to parking revenue or car rentals is probably very small.

[GRID]

It's hard because as been stated before how much parking revenue KCI gets. Add on rental car companies who built the big new RCF don't want to see alternatives.

I feel like we've heard this other places, but do we know this to be the case at KCI? (Maybe we do?) I feel like a lot of people today from downtown are taking Uber to the airport, and even if they are driving, we're still talking a relative handful of people (hence the weak demand for a transit line) which means any dent to parking revenue or car rentals is probably very small.

This. Most people that would use transit to the airport are probably not the same people paying to park there. Airport employees, airline crews, people that live in the downtown area, people staying at central city hotels etc. The vast majority of airport users (probably 95%) will still drive to the airport, even if KC had a full blown dedicated Light Rail line to KCI (which is not feasible and won't get any federal support).

And if KCI was trying to keep buses from going to KCI, why would KCI be more interested in a far more expensive rail connection and possibly having to help pay for that vs just having another dedicated spot for another bus?

My point is that city leaders are going to waste all this time messing with the idea of rail that will go nowhere when they could be implementing a proper bus line.

They were studying commuter rail in KC down I-35 w hen I was in college in the 1990's and its' no further along today then it was back then. Regional rail in KC is nothing but a way to spend federal grants for studies.

[KCPowercat]

Who said kci is interested?

You asked why it's hard, I answered my thoughts. I haven't heard anything more logical as to why