KC Inferiority Complex?

[Chris Stritzel]

I think you've learned how toxic that forum can be, daGOAT.

[daGOAT]

It's pretty aggravating lol I'm just thankful I don't have to deal with those guys in my personal life. I'll enjoy my visits to friends in St. Louis just as much as I always have.

[Riverite]

Yeah, unfortunately if they feel like you are a primarily a KC person any discussion of possible difficulties in St Louis are treated as personal attacks. Also same with comparisons

[Rusty Irish]

I've felt the city is still stinging from Ferguson and the Rams in quick succession. It also had a real place of importance historically in America, but its now a middling Rust Belt city. It'll soon fall behind places like Charlotte and Orlando in metro population. It was an airline hub for TWA before it was all over the world. Its stature has definitely slipped.

Although I think the City/County split is the main problem, not having an empty NFL stadium or crime/social issues. If Clayton didn't exist as a secondary Downtown and the likes of Centene and Enterprise were Downtown proper it would make a huge day to day difference. Its got a big fortune 500/1000 presence despite its social struggles but hardly any of it is Downtown.

[Chris Stritzel]

I've felt the city is still stinging from Ferguson and the Rams in quick succession. It also had a real place of importance historically in America, but its now a middling Rust Belt city. It'll soon fall behind places like Charlotte and Orlando in metro population. It was an airline hub for TWA before it was all over the world. Its stature has definitely slipped.

Although I think the City/County split is the main problem, not having an empty NFL stadium or crime/social issues. If Clayton didn't exist as a secondary Downtown and the likes of Centene and Enterprise were Downtown proper it would make a huge day to day difference. Its got a big fortune 500/1000 presence despite its social struggles but hardly any of it is Downtown.

St. Louis is also still reckoning with the fact that about 550,000 people left the city in a 70-year span. The abandonment and problems that brought are still being reckoned with. St. Louis has had it rough these past 70 years but the only way to move on and look toward a brighter future is to not be so pissy about peer cities and metros. Unfortunately, quite a few people here don't understand that. St. Louis is rooted in history (the World's Fair, Olympics, Riverfront Era, Westward Expansion, etc), but it's not a "superior" city anymore and if people retain the mindset that it is, then they'll continue being bummed when better things happen elsewhere.

St. Louis still has great architecture, there are still dense neighborhoods that have not suffered abandonment, development is continuing to occur in the Central Corridor (although it is slowing down), and our parks are great, just the crime and school issues need be addressed. I've lived in St. Louis for a long time and I can see what's good and what's bad and understand that the Golden Age of St. Louis far in the rearview mirror. It is time for people to realize that and when that happens, then hopefully the focus can turn to it becoming a model mid-sized city, but it will require a lot of work.

What I'm saying is similar to Detroit and while they lost about 1.2 million people since their peak in 1950, they seem to be coming around and recognizing the fact that they'll never be back to where they were again. The leadership and others there know efforts can be made to stabilize and support smart growth while remembering their past, but they are moving on. People in St. Louis are stuck in an early 1900s mindset when the city was in its Golden Age and we were the star of the World. That's just my observation though.

[Rusty Irish]

I've felt the city is still stinging from Ferguson and the Rams in quick succession. It also had a real place of importance historically in America, but its now a middling Rust Belt city. It'll soon fall behind places like Charlotte and Orlando in metro population. It was an airline hub for TWA before it was all over the world. Its stature has definitely slipped.

Although I think the City/County split is the main problem, not having an empty NFL stadium or crime/social issues. If Clayton didn't exist as a secondary Downtown and the likes of Centene and Enterprise were Downtown proper it would make a huge day to day difference. Its got a big fortune 500/1000 presence despite its social struggles but hardly any of it is Downtown.

St. Louis is also still reckoning with the fact that about 550,000 people left the city in a 70-year span. The abandonment and problems that brought are still being reckoned with. St. Louis has had it rough these past 70 years but the only way to move on and look toward a brighter future is to not be so pissy about peer cities and metros. Unfortunately, quite a few people here don't understand that. St. Louis is rooted in history (the World's Fair, Olympics, Riverfront Era, Westward Expansion, etc), but it's not a "superior" city anymore and if people retain the mindset that it is, then they'll continue being bummed when better things happen elsewhere.

St. Louis still has great architecture, there are still dense neighborhoods that have not suffered abandonment, development is continuing to occur in the Central Corridor (although it is slowing down), and our parks are great, just the crime and school issues need be addressed. I've lived in St. Louis for a long time and I can see what's good and what's bad and understand that the Golden Age of St. Louis far in the rearview mirror. It is time for people to realize that and when that happens, then hopefully the focus can turn to it becoming a model mid-sized city, but it will require a lot of work.

What I'm saying is similar to Detroit and while they lost about 1.2 million people since their peak in 1950, they seem to be coming around and recognizing the fact that they'll never be back to where they were again. The leadership and others there know efforts can be made to stabilize and support smart growth while remembering their past, but they are moving on. People in St. Louis are stuck in an early 1900s mindset when the city was in its Golden Age and we were the star of the World. That's just my observation though.

I stayed over on the Illinois side briefly when I went to college so I have an affinity for it. Great walkable neighborhoods with tremendous architecture like you say, very good hockey and baseball fans. Love the Arch and they have their own great bbq. Where I was in Edwardsville was actually quite nice too for all the shit the Illinois side gets and the STL area needs Metro East to be strong to pull the epicenter back east. Edwardsville and places like O'Fallon are solid but I don't know that thats enough now.

Just hope tbh that Ballpark Village gets going again and the MLS adds a bit of life to Downtown developments. I can't see Clayton slowing down anytime soon though and nor do places like Chesterfield or St. Charles County look like they're stopping. Just makes me sad when I see the likes of the AT&T building completely empty. If theres supposedly a movement across the country back towards urban centers then that place should have plenty of takers, but thats not materialised as yet.

[AlkaliAxel]

Just hope tbh that Ballpark Village gets going again

Ballpark village is a classic example of why baseball shouldn't go downtown unless the downtown is already vibrant. A sports venue can't itself create vibrant downtown, it can only parlay.

[Rusty Irish]

Just hope tbh that Ballpark Village gets going again

Ballpark village is a classic example of why baseball shouldn't go downtown unless the downtown is already vibrant. A sports venue can't itself create vibrant downtown, it can only parlay.

I dread to think how bad Downtown STL would be without the sports teams tbh.

[brewcrew1000]

One has to keep in mind that the population of the City of St. Louis has declined by 550,000 in the last 70 years. That's more people than KCMO has ever had in its' history. At most, KCMO lost 71,000 people during the boom of its' suburbs. It's made all that back and now has more residents than it ever has. In the Northland alone, the Shoal Creek area is expected to add 70,000 residents in the future.

Imagine if every single resident of KCMO suddenly disappeared, the impact it would have on the Metro itself. That is what happened to St. Louis -- just over a longer time.

That difference takes a psychological toll on a city, and even though the STL Metro is larger than ours, that trauma bleeds out into the minds of its' suburban residents as well. It affects their perception of themselves and others. Kansas City only had about 20 years of losing population before it started growing back again. St. Louis has continued losing population for the past 60 years.

KCMO has lost a lot more then 71,000 if you only include the main core just like St Louis. I think the main core of KC had a population of about 450,000. If St Louis was the same size as Kansas City as it is now and had far flung suburban areas the St Louis population would be 800-900k and it would basically be another Indianapolis or Kansas City. St Louis City is actually smaller then Lees Summit but has like 3x the population.

[AlkaliAxel]

One has to keep in mind that the population of the City of St. Louis has declined by 550,000 in the last 70 years. That's more people than KCMO has ever had in its' history. At most, KCMO lost 71,000 people during the boom of its' suburbs. It's made all that back and now has more residents than it ever has. In the Northland alone, the Shoal Creek area is expected to add 70,000 residents in the future.

Imagine if every single resident of KCMO suddenly disappeared, the impact it would have on the Metro itself. That is what happened to St. Louis -- just over a longer time.

That difference takes a psychological toll on a city, and even though the STL Metro is larger than ours, that trauma bleeds out into the minds of its' suburban residents as well. It affects their perception of themselves and others. Kansas City only had about 20 years of losing population before it started growing back again. St. Louis has continued losing population for the past 60 years.

KCMO has lost a lot more then 71,000 if you only include the main core just like St Louis. I think the main core of KC had a population of about 450,000. If St Louis was the same size as Kansas City as it is now and had far flung suburban areas the St Louis population would be 800-900k and it would basically be another Indianapolis or Kansas City. St Louis City is actually smaller then Lees Summit but has like 3x the population.

The difference though is that KC’s metro still has always grown, but STL’s metro & city have always been shrinking.

[Critical_Mass]

STL metro has not 'always' been shrinking.

https://www.recenter.tamu.edu/data/popu ... s%2C_MO-IL

The data from 1970 to present shows growth at a decent clip from around 1984 until flat-lining in 2012, growing from about 2.5 million to 2.8 million. During that same time KC metro grew somewhat faster from about 1.5 million to 2 million, and continues (now at 2.2 million). STL city, on the other hand, has consistently lost population.

[earthling]

^Yes, overstated for metro technically but STL metro has had consistent domestic outmigration for several decades, and not enough international inmigration to offset. The minimal growth has been mostly due to birth rate.

STL County peaked in the 90s and has been wavering generally lower to flat ever since...
https://www.recenter.tamu.edu/data/popu ... uis_County

The Central Corridor out to St. Charles has had pretty good momentum. Need to find a way to boost rest of metro and City outside the I64 corridor.

[AlkaliAxel]

I’m just saying, trying to act like KC is in the same realm as STL with population growth issues isn’t true in the slightest sense.

[FangKC]

This country needs to legislate some reasonable immigration law changes. At some point, it will become necessary because of birth rates. Cities like St. Louis would benefit since immigration revives cities.

[earthling]

^Agree. Mentioned before it's pretty clear that KCK has become stable thanks to immigrants. STL has had some success with Bosnian immigrants but needs more breadth to stabilize areas with flight.

[FangKC]

One of my college friends hangs out in a local St. Louis bar with some Bosnian immigrants. They are plumbers and electricians (He's not).

[brewcrew1000]

I never realized St Louis was supposed to be the railroad hub of the Midwest and it makes perfect sense to be the hub cause of it's location. The politicians in Missouri wanted to protect the steamboat industry so they refused to build bridges, so the railroads basically said screw u guys and moved to Chicago. St Louis should be Chicago and Chicago should basically be Milwaukee but if St Louis had that railroad hub then Kansas City would have been a huge deal during that railroad growth.