New Chiefs Stadium

[GRID]

I can't believe anybody on this forum would support an NFL stadium anywhere near downtown.

The sweet spot is right on the outskirts of downtown like Denver, Seattle, Minneapolis have right now. That’s where we need to go with it.

Those cities all have extensive regional transit systems with direct access to the stadiums. KC will never have that. You have to be realistic.

Also, none of those cities have a tailgating culture.

I have gone to a few games in Baltimore who also has an "outskirts of downtown" location. It really makes no difference that it's somewhat close to downtown. It has zero impact on downtown. Everybody drives or takes trains to the stadium and leaves after the game is over. Baltimore's stadium is surrounded by massive parking lots that are just a huge dead zone of the city.

The only place in KC where you could do something like that and not destroy the city is maybe the west bottoms and if you go there, what is the point? Just stay at the TSC.

Build a nice baseball stadium downtown. Keep arrowhead where it's at. If the stadium ever leaves the TSC, it's going to Kansas.

[TheUrbanRoo]

I can't believe anybody on this forum would support an NFL stadium anywhere near downtown.

The sweet spot is right on the outskirts of downtown like Denver, Seattle, Minneapolis have right now. That’s where we need to go with it.

Those cities all have extensive regional transit systems with direct access to the stadiums. KC will never have that. You have to be realistic.

Also, none of those cities have a tailgating culture.

That would be significantly more realistic than running a train to TSC

They don't have a tailgate culture in those cities because none of them have stadiums in empty fields & parking lots like KC. We left people with no choice but to tailgate before games. Now they've grown here to think that is normal and standard.

[GRID]

That would be significantly more realistic than running a train to TSC

They don't have a tailgate culture in those cities because none of them have stadiums in empty fields & parking lots like KC. We left people with no choice but to tailgate before games. Now they've grown here to think that is normal and standard.

How do you figure? If KC were to ever build a true LRT line, one of the only corridors it would even work would be the I-70 corridor from Downtown to some part of suburban Jackson County. And that would serve the TSC.

But that has zero chance of happening. And these other cities have far more robust systems than even a pipe dream I-70 LRT. They have dozens of miles of regional LRT and commuter rail and more comprehensive bus systems. KC barely has a functioning bus system and will have about 6 miles of mixed traffic streetcars that won't be near any stadiums and is not the kind of transit for major stadium events anyway. KC does not and will not have the kinds of transit systems that MSP, Denver, Seattle have for at least 30-50 more years. It is what it is.

And yeah, I understand the tailgating culture is pretty much unique to KC and it's kind of more of a college thing than an NFL thing. But that's part of what makes going to a Chiefs game so special and unique. You take that away from fans and that's just a recipe for disaster. I understand that the Hunt family would like to get the fans to spend more money in the stadium vs hanging out in the parking lots, but I think they can do that with a major renovation of Arrowhead or a new stadium out there while maintaining the tailgating culture.

Now your point makes total sense for the Royals and that's why they do need to move to a more urban area. Tailgating at a MLB game is not a thing at all anywhere else and is really not even a thing in KC even though many people say it is. Very few people tailgate so no big deal if that goes away. I would much rather KC have a more vibrant downtown than a few fans getting wasted and cooking bbq in the parking lot.

And BTW, lots of NFL stadiums are surrounded by a sea of parking lots and nothing else and they still don't tailgate anything like KC does.

[normalthings]

How does IND make it work with no rail and minimal surface lots?

[DColeKC]

Baltimore has a great pre-game scene in Fells Point which is a short walk to the stadium.

Green Bay is well known for its tailgating as is Buffalo. Clark doesn’t want to make more on the concessions side, he wants more on the premium level tickets side. That’s where the money is. Many fans naturally age out of tailgating and it becomes less important as convenience becomes more valuable.

I think considering LRT to TSC isn’t realistic but an admirable goal at the very least.

[beautyfromashes]

If a new stadium costs $1B, I can’t really see how even double the suites covers that cost over the life of the stadium. And there isn’t a large amount of ultra rich here that would pay a super premium for high end suites like Sofi. I honestly can’t see where there would be that amount of extra revenue from a new stadium unless you increase the sheer number of seats.

[GRID]

How does IND make it work with no rail and minimal surface lots?

Have you spent much time in that part of downtown Indy? I have. It works for Indy because that city has less urban fabric right outside of the very core of downtown than KCMO does. There is not really any place to duplicate what Indy has without destroying a large portion of the downtown area and breaking up what little connectivity the CBD has with surrounding areas.

[GRID]

If a new stadium costs $1B, I can’t really see how even double the suites covers that cost over the life of the stadium. And there isn’t a large amount of ultra rich here that would pay a super premium for high end suites like Sofi. I honestly can’t see where there would be that amount of extra revenue from a new stadium unless you increase the sheer number of seats.

Seems like the Chiefs have a hard enough time selling those middle level club seats now. They are always the last to sell out for games if they sell out at all.

[normalthings]

How does IND make it work with no rail and minimal surface lots?

Have you spent much time in that part of downtown Indy? I have. It works for Indy because that city has less urban fabric right outside of the very core of downtown than KCMO does. There is not really any place to duplicate what Indy has without destroying a large portion of the downtown area and breaking up what little connectivity the CBD has with surrounding areas.

Again there is no fabric or connectivity in paseo west

[GRID]

Baltimore has a great pre-game scene in Fells Point which is a short walk to the stadium.

Green Bay is well known for its tailgating as is Buffalo. Clark doesn’t want to make more on the concessions side, he wants more on the premium level tickets side. That’s where the money is. Many fans naturally age out of tailgating and it becomes less important as convenience becomes more valuable.

I think considering LRT to TSC isn’t realistic but an admirable goal at the very least.

Buffalo doesn't have a downtown stadium, so I'm not sure what your point is other than they tailgate? GB has more of a college stadium set up, so again, not really comparable to KC. And come on. Where in Downtown KC would you duplicate Ravens stadium? That part of Baltimore is a vast dead zone like Indy with the stadiums and convention center. KC just doesn't have an area like that where you could put up a stadium except for maybe the west bottoms or along the KCS tracks near Crown Center, but that area is already redeveloping and probably wasn't large enough for an NFL stadium and parking.

And you mean Federal Hill, not Fells Point. You can walk to Federal Hill, but there is just a handful of bars there and they would be busy with our without the stadium there. Fells Point is always bustling and it's not really within walking distance of the stadiums.

Plus again, Baltimore has LRT and MARC commuter rail stops at the stadiums.

I just feel like an NFL stadium in downtown KCMO would be destructive and create yet another massive permanent dead zone in the downtown area. But this horse is pretty dead...

[GRID]

How does IND make it work with no rail and minimal surface lots?

Have you spent much time in that part of downtown Indy? I have. It works for Indy because that city has less urban fabric right outside of the very core of downtown than KCMO does. There is not really any place to duplicate what Indy has without destroying a large portion of the downtown area and breaking up what little connectivity the CBD has with surrounding areas.

Again there is no fabric or connectivity in paseo west

But you have an opportunity to correct that with a ballpark and surrounding development. Throwing an NFL stadium into the mix would really create a barrier. That's just too much. A smaller, more used MLB stadium can work, but putting up basically a sports complex of two stadiums there would wall off downtown from the east.

Downtown is already isolated as it is with the river to the north and bluffs to the west which is why it's so empty of people and cars for a large downtown. It has no connectively to the rest of the city other than highways. The crossroads is coming to life to the south but why mess up the chance to connect downtown to the east and redevelop areas east of the loop? An NFL stadium there will not do that. It will basically create a wall.

[Rusty Irish]

I can't believe anybody on this forum would support an NFL stadium anywhere near downtown.

The sweet spot is right on the outskirts of downtown like Denver, Seattle, Minneapolis have right now. That’s where we need to go with it.

Those cities all have extensive regional transit systems with direct access to the stadiums. KC will never have that. You have to be realistic.

Also, none of those cities have a tailgating culture.

I have gone to a few games in Baltimore who also has an "outskirts of downtown" location. It really makes no difference that it's somewhat close to downtown. It has zero impact on downtown. Everybody drives or takes trains to the stadium and leaves after the game is over. Baltimore's stadium is surrounded by massive parking lots that are just a huge dead zone of the city.

The only place in KC where you could do something like that and not destroy the city is maybe the west bottoms and if you go there, what is the point? Just stay at the TSC.

Build a nice baseball stadium downtown. Keep arrowhead where it's at. If the stadium ever leaves the TSC, it's going to Kansas.

The Camden Yards Sports Complex has 4,000 parking spaces. TSC has 18,000.

Camden Yards has a rail station, a casino next door, a convention center and an arena within a mile. It'll soon have a concert venue, Over 25 hotels within a mile. Trip advisor lists nearly 200 restaurants/bars, I'd say thats somewhats excessive, but its more than Taco Bell and Denny's anyway.

[TheUrbanRoo]

I just don't see the appeal of building new at the TSC when you could re-build outside downtown.

[FlippantCitizen]

NFL doesn't belong anywhere near downtown not even the outskirts of downtown... why? What do we even get for that except taking up land that one day far on down the line might have been viable for redevelopment. Put the stadium there and you take the crater that is Paseo West between the Independence Plaza, Pendleton Heights and Northeast neighborhoods and make it permanent. Maybe I'm dreaming but I'd rather see workforce housing going into Paseo West than a damn NFL stadium that's empty 350 days a year.

[GRID]

The sweet spot is right on the outskirts of downtown like Denver, Seattle, Minneapolis have right now. That’s where we need to go with it.

Those cities all have extensive regional transit systems with direct access to the stadiums. KC will never have that. You have to be realistic.

Also, none of those cities have a tailgating culture.

I have gone to a few games in Baltimore who also has an "outskirts of downtown" location. It really makes no difference that it's somewhat close to downtown. It has zero impact on downtown. Everybody drives or takes trains to the stadium and leaves after the game is over. Baltimore's stadium is surrounded by massive parking lots that are just a huge dead zone of the city.

The only place in KC where you could do something like that and not destroy the city is maybe the west bottoms and if you go there, what is the point? Just stay at the TSC.

Build a nice baseball stadium downtown. Keep arrowhead where it's at. If the stadium ever leaves the TSC, it's going to Kansas.

The Camden Yards Sports Complex has 4,000 parking spaces. TSC has 18,000.

Camden Yards has a rail station, a casino next door, a convention center and an arena within a mile. It'll soon have a concert venue, Over 25 hotels within a mile. Trip advisor lists nearly 200 restaurants/bars, I'd say thats somewhats excessive, but its more than Taco Bell and Denny's anyway.

You do realize I live 20 miles from that stadium right? Trust me. That entire area of Baltimore is a dead zone. I bike through the area all the time when it's not in use have gone to NFL games (and many MLB games of course). I'm in the Federal Hill, Downtown, Harbor East and Fells Point areas all the time. They are probably busier on days when the Ravens are not in town. The stadium has little impact. KC does not have a place to locate another giant dead zone adjacent to its downtown. If it could go on the other side of Bartle then that would be more like what Baltimore has. Even the area around Camden Yards is pretty much a dead zone, but at least all the parking for Camden is over at the football stadium.

Guess what's on the other side of the stadiums in Baltimore. Ghetto. Nothing is happening over there. Same would happen east of Paseo.

The idea of putting a stadium east of a baseball stadium downtown sounds like a decent idea, but I don't think people realize how much damage that would actually do to downtown's ability to ever be reintegrated with the neighborhoods to the east. It would not bridge the gap, it would create a wall probably worse then the interstate.

[FlippantCitizen]

It would not bridge the gap, it would create a wall probably worse then the interstate.

This sums it up. This isn't even on the table anyways.

[Rusty Irish]

Those cities all have extensive regional transit systems with direct access to the stadiums. KC will never have that. You have to be realistic.

Also, none of those cities have a tailgating culture.

I have gone to a few games in Baltimore who also has an "outskirts of downtown" location. It really makes no difference that it's somewhat close to downtown. It has zero impact on downtown. Everybody drives or takes trains to the stadium and leaves after the game is over. Baltimore's stadium is surrounded by massive parking lots that are just a huge dead zone of the city.

The only place in KC where you could do something like that and not destroy the city is maybe the west bottoms and if you go there, what is the point? Just stay at the TSC.

Build a nice baseball stadium downtown. Keep arrowhead where it's at. If the stadium ever leaves the TSC, it's going to Kansas.

The Camden Yards Sports Complex has 4,000 parking spaces. TSC has 18,000.

Camden Yards has a rail station, a casino next door, a convention center and an arena within a mile. It'll soon have a concert venue, Over 25 hotels within a mile. Trip advisor lists nearly 200 restaurants/bars, I'd say thats somewhats excessive, but its more than Taco Bell and Denny's anyway.

You do realize I live 20 miles from that stadium right? Trust me. That entire area of Baltimore is a dead zone. I bike through the area all the time when it's not in use have gone to NFL games (and many MLB games of course). I'm in the Federal Hill, Downtown, Harbor East and Fells Point areas all the time. They are probably busier on days when the Ravens are not in town. The stadium has little impact. KC does not have a place to locate another giant dead zone adjacent to its downtown. If it could go on the other side of Bartle then that would be more like what Baltimore has. Even the area around Camden Yards is pretty much a dead zone, but at least all the parking for Camden is over at the football stadium.

Guess what's on the other side of the stadiums in Baltimore. Ghetto. Nothing is happening over there. Same would happen east of Paseo.

The idea of putting a stadium east of a baseball stadium downtown sounds like a decent idea, but I don't think people realize how much damage that would actually do to downtown's ability to ever be reintegrated with the neighborhoods to the east. It would not bridge the gap, it would create a wall probably worse then the interstate.

I've been twice to Baltimore, once when there was an Orioles game on and despite the crowd being relatively low as the team was struggling the surrounding area was still very active. Much better for the city overall than a stadium being in Baltimore County or a wasteland like Fedex Field. What would be in that part of town if not for those stadiums? More surface lots, some light industrial uses and more neglected buildings? Its all relative - a stadium is never going to make or break an area, in the same way a hotel or a casino on their own aren't either but it combines to add patrons as many other things do throughout an average year. Theres no way anyone can tell me though a dead rundown semi ghetto/industrial area in KC could turn its nose up at 70k people (plus all those working in and around) even 10-12 times a year, and thats just from the actual games, everyone is in on the development game now because they want to make money 365 and theres a market for people living and working in proximity to their favorite teams. Whats the alternative in some of these areas, wait forever for a better project that'll never happen? If this was 1975 and we were plonking a big lump of concrete on an existing neighborhood surrounded by a sea of asphalt I would agree. Other than the Buffalo Bills though, every one in every major league is building urban stadiums or stadiums surrounded by associated development.

The Tennessee Titans want to revitalize a deadzone outside of Downtown Nashville into a walkable area with up to 10k residential units and other multi use components. Thats the barometer for me. Not Arrowhead 2.0 with another 3k parking spaces on top of Kauffman, actually thats a fucking urban disaster if thats the plan.

[GRID]

Nothing wrong with Camden yards there. Really nothing wrong with Ravens either. But the complex is dead when there is not a game so where it is placed can really change the direction of how downtown develops. Almost no private development occurs near the stadiums in Baltimore except the casino.

First off I'm saying there is a huge difference between a MLB park downtown and an NFL stadium downtown. I 100% support moving the Royals downtown. I would be okay with the Chiefs moving downtown if there was a place for them to go like Ravens where it's sort of downtown but doesn't really get in the way of Downtown. I really don't think there is a place like that in Downtown KC except the West Bottoms which has such a topography/elevation change that it's not really "downtown".

[TheUrbanRoo]

So many other good quality cities have put NFL stadiums near the downtowns. There’s literally no benefit to TSC over the downtown area. It will remain surface lots and decay forever or a stadium can go there and look amazing.

[normalthings]

Crossroads benefits from sitting between 2 centers of business and tourism and on the main N/W arterial of the city. Paseo West has nothing to draw people in or through it. Paseo East is all institutional uses providing a fire wall to any movement or development deeper into the east side.

Grid, try checking out Paseo West when you visit next and I think you’ll come to agree it’s cut off from pretty much everything but the East Village (which will be fully built out by Royals + Royals Village). Paseo West has no urban fabric, no activity or momentum. An NFL stadium there can leverage existing investments in CC, Royals, Sprint Center and create many new opportunities. It also could lead to additional adjacent development whereas otherwise Paseo West would become cheap 3Rd party parking for Royals.

IND and other cities manage minimal surface parking next to their facilities.