KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

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beautyfromashes
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by beautyfromashes »

UMKC Roo wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:59 pm I just will say this: At all costs keep LRT the fuck out of JoCo
How do you see JoCo suburbs different than JaxCo suburbs? How are they any different? How does building some great JaxCo LRT system benefit the city core and not just legitimize JaxCo suburbs and build them up?
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by SilentSpades24 »

(DUPLICATED)
Last edited by SilentSpades24 on Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by SilentSpades24 »

beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 6:29 pm
UMKC Roo wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:59 pm I just will say this: At all costs keep LRT the fuck out of JoCo
How do you see JoCo suburbs different than JaxCo suburbs? How are they any different? How does building some great JaxCo LRT system benefit the city core and not just legitimize JaxCo suburbs and build them up?
AMEN!

The Streetcar system won't (and shouldn't) leave the Urban Core besides, going to North KC, and maybe a line back down the Trolley Track Trail.

Light rail, or anything like that shouldn't even be built imo. Why incentivize people to live far away from the core, from jobs, etc? Do our interstates not do that already?

Kansas City has four great and walkable urban cores, KCMO, KCK, Independence, and North Kansas City. We don't need to keep incentivizing sprawl. we need to fill in the gaps and redevelop these cores.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by normalthings »

SilentSpades24 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:56 pm
beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 6:29 pm
UMKC Roo wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:59 pm I just will say this: At all costs keep LRT the fuck out of JoCo
How do you see JoCo suburbs different than JaxCo suburbs? How are they any different? How does building some great JaxCo LRT system benefit the city core and not just legitimize JaxCo suburbs and build them up?
AMEN!

The Streetcar system won't (and shouldn't) leave the Urban Core besides, going to North KC, and maybe a line back down the Trolley Track Trail.

Light rail, or anything like that shouldn't even be built imo. Why incentivize people to live far away from the core, from jobs, etc? Do our interstates not do that already?

Kansas City has four great and walkable urban cores, KCMO, KCK, Independence, and North Kansas City. We don't need to keep incentivizing sprawl. we need to fill in the gaps and redevelop these cores.
I don’t think curb running streetcar serves the core adequately. I think it’s a mistake for Main Street and we will outgrow, and really started to in 2019, in the original stretch.

This is a 8 mile line. Other cities build LRT to serve such distances in urban cores. STL is doing such today. I’m just saying put the streetcar in the center of the street. Why argue against better reliability, speed, chance for more capacity, chance for future flexibility, etc?
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by Chris Stritzel »

I’ve gone down 39th Street a couple of times the past few weeks and figured center-running makes sense based on current conditions. Stagger the stops a bit, or don’t, and it should work. Parking could be retained curbside and automobile traffic would just follow the streetcar as-is. Once you get to a street like Broadway and Linwood, then it would be its own dedicated right of way with signal priority. That would make it more light rail like.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by SilentSpades24 »

normalthings wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:43 pm
SilentSpades24 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:56 pm
beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 6:29 pm
How do you see JoCo suburbs different than JaxCo suburbs? How are they any different? How does building some great JaxCo LRT system benefit the city core and not just legitimize JaxCo suburbs and build them up?
AMEN!

The Streetcar system won't (and shouldn't) leave the Urban Core besides, going to North KC, and maybe a line back down the Trolley Track Trail.

Light rail, or anything like that shouldn't even be built imo. Why incentivize people to live far away from the core, from jobs, etc? Do our interstates not do that already?

Kansas City has four great and walkable urban cores, KCMO, KCK, Independence, and North Kansas City. We don't need to keep incentivizing sprawl. we need to fill in the gaps and redevelop these cores.
I don’t think curb running streetcar serves the core adequately. I think it’s a mistake for Main Street and we will outgrow, and really started to in 2019, in the original stretch.

This is a 8 mile line. Other cities build LRT to serve such distances in urban cores. STL is doing such today. I’m just saying put the streetcar in the center of the street. Why argue against better reliability, speed, chance for more capacity, chance for future flexibility, etc?
Allow me to rephrase. I don't think we should be building light rail out to the suburbs. We shouldn't under any circumstance encourage sprawl.

As for the urban core streetcar, I am fully in support of center-running, center stations, etc.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by TheUrbanRoo »

SilentSpades24 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:56 pm
beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 6:29 pm
UMKC Roo wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:59 pm I just will say this: At all costs keep LRT the fuck out of JoCo
How do you see JoCo suburbs different than JaxCo suburbs? How are they any different? How does building some great JaxCo LRT system benefit the city core and not just legitimize JaxCo suburbs and build them up?
AMEN!

The Streetcar system won't (and shouldn't) leave the Urban Core besides, going to North KC, and maybe a line back down the Trolley Track Trail.

Light rail, or anything like that shouldn't even be built imo. Why incentivize people to live far away from the core, from jobs, etc? Do our interstates not do that already?

Kansas City has four great and walkable urban cores, KCMO, KCK, Independence, and North Kansas City. We don't need to keep incentivizing sprawl. we need to fill in the gaps and redevelop these cores.
I concur. What’s the disagreement?
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by SilentSpades24 »

No disagreement (here)! Getting a bit too passionate here!
Last edited by SilentSpades24 on Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by FlippantCitizen »

UMKC Roo wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:20 pm I concur. What’s the disagreement?
BFA doesn't want center running. Also wants the urban core focused on to the exclusion of any and all suburban areas. I mostly agree but differ in thinking KCK, NKC (and maybe onto Gladstone after that), Independence, and maybe a line on the rock island ROW should be brought into the fold. That would be a good way to sell the a comprehensive system to more counties so we can get a multi county/multi city funding mechanism.

Lets get some inner ring suburbs on our side so we don't keep getting our lunch eaten by 159th street, Village West, and whatever ridiculous mixed use project just got proposed for Liberty.

My dream system in 25-30 years includes a robust urban system. 31st/Linwood line, Trolley Track line, Independence Ave Line, an east side N/S line (Troost, Prospect or Paseo), 18th/SW BLVD. Perhaps a few other routes or spurs. Those are my primary concerns. But I think pairing those with some peace offerings to a few inner ring suburbs would be useful and desirable and would not lead to further flight of our urban population, which seemed to be BFA's main concern.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by SilentSpades24 »

FlippantCitizen wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:58 pm
UMKC Roo wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:20 pm I concur. What’s the disagreement?
BFA doesn't want center running. Also wants the urban core focused on to the exclusion of any and all suburban areas. I mostly agree but differ in thinking KCK, NKC (and maybe onto Gladstone after that), Independence, and maybe a line on the rock island ROW should be brought into the fold. That would be a good way to sell the a comprehensive system to more counties so we can get a multi county/multi city funding mechanism.

Lets get some inner ring suburbs on our side so we don't keep getting our lunch eaten by 159th street, Village West, and whatever ridiculous mixed use project just got proposed for Liberty.

My dream system in 25-30 years includes a robust urban system. 31st/Linwood line, Trolley Track line, Independence Ave Line, an east side N/S line (Troost, Prospect or Paseo), 18th/SW BLVD. Perhaps a few other routes or spurs. Those are my primary concerns. But I think pairing those with some peace offerings to a few inner ring suburbs would be useful and desirable and would not lead to further flight of our urban population, which seemed to be BFA's main concern.
KCK, NKC, and Independence have great cores that can be capitalized on, streetcar could be a great way to do that. I think even without the inner-ring suburbs, just including KCK and Independence in the conversation could go a long way in bringing pull back into urban cores.

Though, if we could leverage service into the burbs to finally get a regional funding mechanism (and funding in general), then I'm all for it, but it needs to include bus, bike, and microtransit services too.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by FlippantCitizen »

SilentSpades24 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:07 pm KCK, NKC, and Independence have great cores that can be capitalized on, streetcar could be a great way to do that. I think even without the inner-ring suburbs, just including KCK and Independence in the conversation could go a long way in bringing pull back into urban cores.

Though, if we could leverage service into the burbs to finally get a regional funding mechanism (and funding in general), then I'm all for it, but it needs to include bus, bike, and microtransit services too.
I think we are perfectly in agreement then. Just in terminology I would consider KCK, NKC and Independence as inner ring suburbs. Again I'm not talking about trying to run rail all the way to the airport or 159th street or Blue Springs. Aside from DT KCK, Independence, NKC (and perhaps a little further up North Oak), the only thing I would add is maybe something on Rock Island ROW towards Raytown and Lee's Summit simply because the ROW has been acquired and it would be relatively easy. My priority though, like BFA and yourself, is and will always be a robust system in the core. But if we need to sell other counties/municipalities in the interest of funding then what I laid out is the most maximal "minimal" approach if that makes sense.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by beautyfromashes »

FlippantCitizen wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:16 pm But if we need to sell other counties/municipalities in the interest of funding then what I laid out is the most maximal "minimal" approach if that makes sense.
Perhaps cynical, but I don't think there will ever be a regional funding mechanism and, if it did happen, the city core would be screwed by it. They wouldn't fold the current streetcar in so city center residents would be double taxed for the same service. NKC is probably the outlier on a possible extension as they seem to be more progressive and want to be part of the city. Council attitudes ("not one city $ will go to the streetcar!") just seems too entrenched among the 8-10 (maybe even 11) non-urban council people. As much as I'd like to connect to KCK I'd never want to have a line into Kansas that the state could connect to. I trust them so little. Building an urban environment is the cores ONLY opportunity to differentiate themselves from our suburbs and to regrow population. We have to have something they can't replicate or steal.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by FlippantCitizen »

beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:43 pm
FlippantCitizen wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:16 pm But if we need to sell other counties/municipalities in the interest of funding then what I laid out is the most maximal "minimal" approach if that makes sense.
Perhaps cynical, but I don't think there will ever be a regional funding mechanism and, if it did happen, the city core would be screwed by it. They wouldn't fold the current streetcar in so city center residents would be double taxed for the same service. NKC is probably the outlier on a possible extension as they seem to be more progressive and want to be part of the city. Council attitudes ("not one city $ will go to the streetcar!") just seems too entrenched among the 8-10 (maybe even 11) non-urban council people. As much as I'd like to connect to KCK I'd never want to have a line into Kansas that the state could connect to. I trust them so little. Building an urban environment is the cores ONLY opportunity to differentiate themselves from our suburbs and to regrow population. We have to have something they can't replicate or steal.
It should be an ongoing conversation. Urban KC should not sell out at a detriment to its own interest. At the same time we should not predetermine that collaboration is off the table.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by TheLastGentleman »

On the center running vs curb running streetcar, I’m struggling to see what the big deal is. Millions of people ride the curb running streetcar line today, millions road the curb running streetcars historically, and if somehow traffic becomes a catastrophic flaw to the curb running system, we can just remove cars from that street. We have lots of almost empty parallel streets for folks to drive their monstrous pickup trucks up and down instead, and the city has removed entire streets for far less justified reasons. I think we can afford a few non-car streets
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by normalthings »

TheLastGentleman wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:18 pm On the center running vs curb running streetcar, I’m struggling to see what the big deal is. Millions of people ride the curb running streetcar line today, millions road the curb running streetcars historically, and if somehow traffic becomes a catastrophic flaw to the curb running system, we can just remove cars from that street. We have lots of almost empty parallel streets for folks to drive their monstrous pickup trucks up and down instead, and the city has removed entire streets for far less justified reasons. I think we can afford a few non-car streets
The old lines were center running
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by TheLastGentleman »

normalthings wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:20 pmThe old lines were center running
Ok maybe they weren’t literally on the curb, but they were definitely mixed into the car traffic and weren’t exactly in the center

Image
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by normalthings »

TheLastGentleman wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:37 pm
normalthings wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:20 pmThe old lines were center running
Ok maybe they weren’t literally on the curb, but they were definitely mixed into the car traffic and weren’t exactly in the center

Image
As Chris mentions, it can be center running shared lane on 39th for example. On wider streets, center running dedicated lane would be nice. I’m happy as long as we stop doing this curb stuff.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by SilentSpades24 »

beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:43 pm Perhaps cynical, but I don't think there will ever be a regional funding mechanism and, if it did happen, the city core would be screwed by it.
In terms of Streetcar service, the core would definitely get screwed. The Burbs getting streetcar access would take away the one thing the urban core(s) have over the burbs, hence making infill a harder sell.

In terms of overall mass-transit, regional funding may help if nothing else, provide those in the core some sort of access to opportunities our current bus system doesn't or can't address very well.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by beautyfromashes »

SilentSpades24 wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:05 am In terms of overall mass-transit, regional funding may help if nothing else, provide those in the core some sort of access to opportunities our current bus system doesn't or can't address very well.
I can’t think of any.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by Cratedigger »

TheLastGentleman wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:18 pm On the center running vs curb running streetcar, I’m struggling to see what the big deal is. Millions of people ride the curb running streetcar line today, millions road the curb running streetcars historically, and if somehow traffic becomes a catastrophic flaw to the curb running system, we can just remove cars from that street. We have lots of almost empty parallel streets for folks to drive their monstrous pickup trucks up and down instead, and the city has removed entire streets for far less justified reasons. I think we can afford a few non-car streets
Main Street downtown especially would be so much better as a dedicated streetcar + pedestrian/bike street
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