KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

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normalthings
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by normalthings »

beautyfromashes wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:29 pm
normalthings wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:03 pm This line also would be the line in 20 or 30 years to get extended to Raytown or Lee's Summit. I really want a future growth and extendability mindset.
Hard pass for me! I have zero reason to ever go to Raytown or Lee’s Summit and I’m sure not going to pay for rail for the suburbs when they didn’t pay for rail for me. The only way to reverse urban flight is to provide something you can’t get anywhere else to entice people to move back.
This isn't going to be a TDD project. There will have to be city/county/state money.
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beautyfromashes
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by beautyfromashes »

normalthings wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:31 pm This isn't going to be a TDD project. There will have to be city/county/state money.
And why should I vote for that when I’m already paying for rail transportation in my neighborhood through property tax?
So many people think streetcar supporters will keep voting for expansion. They won’t if they don’t see a personal, direct return.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by alejandro46 »

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normalthings
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by normalthings »

beautyfromashes wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:44 pm
normalthings wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:31 pm This isn't going to be a TDD project. There will have to be city/county/state money.
And why should I vote for that when I’m already paying for rail transportation in my neighborhood through property tax?
So many people think streetcar supporters will keep voting for expansion. They won’t if they don’t see a personal, direct return.
There is alot more reasons for someone on the route to expand where they can go than for the suburbs to pay for a rail line that doesn't reach them.

Suburbs or a broader region will have to pay for an east/west urban core line. In 20-30 years when this line is paid off, build the next extension using the free cash flow.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by beautyfromashes »

normalthings wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:16 am There is alot more reasons for someone on the route to expand where they can go than for the suburbs to pay for a rail line that doesn't reach them.

Suburbs or a broader region will have to pay for an east/west urban core line. In 20-30 years when this line is paid off, build the next extension using the free cash flow.
So, I'm supposed to feel sorry for the suburbs having to pay for a rail line that doesn't reach them when I have to pay trillion of dollars for highway lanes and massive utility extensions, an unproportional amount of property tax? See, that's the thing that always happens. When the suburbs want something, it's "necessary" but when I want something, "you have to pay for that out of your own pocket". So, no the imbalance on expenditures for the urban core compared to the suburbs isn't even close. I owe them nothing(.)
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by normalthings »

Your mindset is the pathway to everyone getting nothing.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by alejandro46 »

Here is the full presentation:
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://ridekc.org/assets/uploads/docum ... pm_web.pdf

And a feedback survey (due Feb 17)
https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/testeastwest
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by FlippantCitizen »

The more I sit with the decade long timeline for streetcar the more disillusioned I get. I understand all the process aspects that draws infrastructure projects out like this, environmental reviews, public engagement, applying for matching federal funds, blah blah blah and etc. But the process is the problem, and this isn't just my frustration about one project in my neighborhood. This is a problem across the country that cuts to the very sense of American decline and stagnation, real and/or perceived. We just have no ability to execute on the things we know are necessary in any kind of timely manner. We literally lost the ability to build things with the speed and efficiency that we could 50 years ago. Sometimes people who are enmeshed in these processes lose the sense of the water they are swimming in and will justify or punt in regard to these criticisms. No one person can fix this, but make no mistake, the status quo is seriously broken.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by langosta »

FlippantCitizen wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 3:42 pm The more I sit with the decade long timeline for streetcar the more disillusioned I get. I understand all the process aspects that draws infrastructure projects out like this, environmental reviews, public engagement, applying for matching federal funds, blah blah blah and etc. But the process is the problem, and this isn't just my frustration about one project in my neighborhood. This is a problem across the country that cuts to the very sense of American decline and stagnation, real and/or perceived. We just have no ability to execute on the things we know are necessary in any kind of timely manner. We literally lost the ability to build things with the speed and efficiency that we could 50 years ago. Sometimes people who are enmeshed in these processes lose the sense of the water they are swimming in and will justify or punt in regard to these criticisms. No one person can fix this, but make no mistake, the status quo is seriously broken.
If you can cut the Federal Gov. out, you can skip most of this process. With the time and costs that the Fed bring and the proposed 100% buy America rule, I think you get really close to being better off not doing a Fed grant.

KC Streetcar UMKC Proposed: 2016
KC Streetcar UMKC Opening: 2025

Omaha Streetcar Proposed: December 2021
Omaha Streetcar Opening: 2026

OKC launched a sales tax early to fund the later construction of the project with little/no debt so there is a gap between proposing and constructing. Iirc, 2015 is when they started actually got the procurement/planning going.

OKC Streetcar Proposed: 2009
OKC Streetcar Opening: 2018
Last edited by langosta on Mon Feb 13, 2023 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by TheUrbanRoo »

langosta wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 3:49 pm KC Streetcar UMKC Proposed: 2016
KC Streetcar UMKC Opening: 2026
It's late 2024 or 2025. Idk where the 2026 came from.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by alejandro46 »

langosta wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 3:49 pm
FlippantCitizen wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 3:42 pm The more I sit with the decade long timeline for streetcar the more disillusioned I get. I understand all the process aspects that draws infrastructure projects out like this, environmental reviews, public engagement, applying for matching federal funds, blah blah blah and etc. But the process is the problem, and this isn't just my frustration about one project in my neighborhood. This is a problem across the country that cuts to the very sense of American decline and stagnation, real and/or perceived. We just have no ability to execute on the things we know are necessary in any kind of timely manner. We literally lost the ability to build things with the speed and efficiency that we could 50 years ago. Sometimes people who are enmeshed in these processes lose the sense of the water they are swimming in and will justify or punt in regard to these criticisms. No one person can fix this, but make no mistake, the status quo is seriously broken.
If you can cut the Federal Gov. out, you can skip most of this process. With the time and costs that the Fed bring and the proposed 100% buy America rule, I think you get really close to being better off not doing a Fed grant.

KC Streetcar UMKC Proposed: 2016
KC Streetcar UMKC Opening: 2026

Omaha Streetcar Proposed: December 2021
Omaha Streetcar Opening: 2026

OKC launched a sales tax early to fund the later construction of the project with little/no debt so there is a gap between proposing and constructing. Iirc, 2015 is when they started actually got the procurement/planning going.

OKC Streetcar Proposed: 2009
OKC Streetcar Opening: 2018
The problem is there is not enough value capture for TIF/CID in the areas where we want to expand, even cutting out the Feds KCMO can't raise ~$450m through that manner. And then if we get a regional fund going we shouldn't rush it but instead try to get the maximum federal dollars possible even if there is more legwork. Despite the onerous rules maybe we can better compete versus smaller cities projects who can't meet those requirements.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by langosta »

alejandro46 wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 4:28 pm
langosta wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 3:49 pm
FlippantCitizen wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 3:42 pm The more I sit with the decade long timeline for streetcar the more disillusioned I get. I understand all the process aspects that draws infrastructure projects out like this, environmental reviews, public engagement, applying for matching federal funds, blah blah blah and etc. But the process is the problem, and this isn't just my frustration about one project in my neighborhood. This is a problem across the country that cuts to the very sense of American decline and stagnation, real and/or perceived. We just have no ability to execute on the things we know are necessary in any kind of timely manner. We literally lost the ability to build things with the speed and efficiency that we could 50 years ago. Sometimes people who are enmeshed in these processes lose the sense of the water they are swimming in and will justify or punt in regard to these criticisms. No one person can fix this, but make no mistake, the status quo is seriously broken.
If you can cut the Federal Gov. out, you can skip most of this process. With the time and costs that the Fed bring and the proposed 100% buy America rule, I think you get really close to being better off not doing a Fed grant.

KC Streetcar UMKC Proposed: 2016
KC Streetcar UMKC Opening: 2026

Omaha Streetcar Proposed: December 2021
Omaha Streetcar Opening: 2026

OKC launched a sales tax early to fund the later construction of the project with little/no debt so there is a gap between proposing and constructing. Iirc, 2015 is when they started actually got the procurement/planning going.

OKC Streetcar Proposed: 2009
OKC Streetcar Opening: 2018
The problem is there is not enough value capture for TIF/CID in the areas where we want to expand, even cutting out the Feds KCMO can't raise ~$450m through that manner. And then if we get a regional fund going we shouldn't rush it but instead try to get the maximum federal dollars possible even if there is more legwork. Despite the onerous rules maybe we can better compete versus smaller cities projects who can't meet those requirements.
My hesitancy is that at some point the wait and increased costs aren't worth it anymore. I read the proposed 100% buy America requirement will add another 20-30% to project costs. At that point, you aren't getting any benefit from a Federal grant. Even if its close I'd rather skip the grant and build it in half the time.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by FlippantCitizen »

This was a meta point. Pursuing federal funds or not... the fact it's even a debate that means the difference between 4-5 or 8-10 years on a project is 100% the point of my comment. Also the fact that there are city and transit authority level pieces of the process that are just ridiculous. It's been all fall and winter with this initial study out. They come back and have only narrowed down the routing and the mode to the most obvious choices. There's no reason to have not come out with a firm and strongly preferred plan in terms of route and mode already. This is the fetishization of process run amok.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by TheLastGentleman »

Good luck cutting the government out of government projects
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by FlippantCitizen »

TheLastGentleman wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:36 pm Good luck cutting the government out of government projects
I'm not denigrating government. I'm demanding better from it.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by TheLastGentleman »

FlippantCitizen wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:41 pm
TheLastGentleman wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:36 pm Good luck cutting the government out of government projects
I'm not denigrating government. I'm demanding better from it.
Wasn’t necessarily responding to you, more to the idea of cutting out the federal govt. KC is in a tough place. The local govt is broke and much of the State govt is explicitly antiurban, so the federal govt is basically all we have at this point. Or we can try to get Jeff city to get its shit together but I’m not holding my breath
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by FlippantCitizen »

Yeah I've got you. My call is for government to be more vigorous and act with more conviction at every level; local, state and federal.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by DaveKCMO »

Thankfully you have advocates willing to put in the long-term work to make these things a reality. We've outlasted mayors, city managers, and public works directors.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by smh »

DaveKCMO wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:15 pm Thankfully you have advocates willing to put in the long-term work to make these things a reality. We've outlasted mayors, city managers, and public works directors.
In particular public works directors. ;-)
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by TheUrbanRoo »

Kevin Collison says on PBS that E/W streetcar is dead unless they do a city/county/regional vote.

They also floated the idea of E/W streetcar to Arrowhead as a part of a new Chiefs stadium package
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