KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

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Chris Stritzel
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by Chris Stritzel »

I’m still backing 39th-Broadway-31st because of the fact that 31st has the built environment that can be renovated easily and thrive. Plus you’d have the tie-in to the current streetcar line at 31st whereas on Linwood, the transfer/connection is a few blocks in either direction. You want to be practical and productive with this line since it'll set the tone for transit expansion in the central city for years to come. The 31st Street routing achieves this far better than Linwood and is a more intimate route.

On Broadway, the extra few blocks between Linwood and 31st open up a ton of additional riders through office buildings and the community college. One day, some of those buildings will be replaced with, or converted into, housing. Running a high-capacity transit line on 31st also means that Penn Valley Park can be better connected to the system.

Freeing up standard busses on 31st for another route would be more beneficial to another route in the long-term.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by beautyfromashes »

I know 39th seems to be the consensus leaving KUMed but I still really like 43rd St and it seems a bit overlooked. Connecting at Broadway and moving north on Broadway gets you connection to St. Lukes and Westport while possibly spurring development on St Lukes massive parking lots. There's as much commercial development on that street as 39th St and is wider. Lastly, you could tie in a re-do of the SW Trafficway "knot" while you're at it.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by herrfrank »

beautyfromashes wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:07 am I know 39th seems to be the consensus leaving KUMed but I still really like 43rd St and it seems a bit overlooked. Connecting at Broadway and moving north on Broadway gets you connection to St. Lukes and Westport while possibly spurring development on St Lukes massive parking lots. There's as much commercial development on that street as 39th St and is wider. Lastly, you could tie in a re-do of the SW Trafficway "knot" while you're at it.
Why not do both?

The western terminus could be 39th and Rainbow or even 39th and State Line -- heading west to Rainbow, south to 43d, east along 43d to B'Way then north to Westport Road, east to Main where the tracks could be shared with the existing line. Then somewhere, say Linwood, continue eastward with this line to Prospect or even to the VA Hospital at Van Brunt.
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beautyfromashes
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by beautyfromashes »

herrfrank wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:32 am Why not do both?

The western terminus could be 39th and Rainbow or even 39th and State Line -- heading west to Rainbow, south to 43d, east along 43d to B'Way then north to Westport Road, east to Main where the tracks could be shared with the existing line. Then somewhere, say Linwood, continue eastward with this line to Prospect or even to the VA Hospital at Van Brunt.
I’m good with this. I’d guess the problem with this (and my proposal too) is adding track miles. I’d probably like to continue down Broadway to get PVCC and the park but, again, more miles.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by alejandro46 »

First, inject this proposal into my veins. Absolutely run the streetcar to VA from KU Med, the specific routes seem pretty good no matter which one. I still kind of like the idea of split running Linwood/31st but I understand there is questions about that.

39th street is narrow, but direct route to KUMed. I think you have to go Main to reduce cost/miles built.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by normalthings »

herrfrank wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:32 am
beautyfromashes wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:07 am I know 39th seems to be the consensus leaving KUMed but I still really like 43rd St and it seems a bit overlooked. Connecting at Broadway and moving north on Broadway gets you connection to St. Lukes and Westport while possibly spurring development on St Lukes massive parking lots. There's as much commercial development on that street as 39th St and is wider. Lastly, you could tie in a re-do of the SW Trafficway "knot" while you're at it.
Why not do both?

The western terminus could be 39th and Rainbow or even 39th and State Line -- heading west to Rainbow, south to 43d, east along 43d to B'Way then north to Westport Road, east to Main where the tracks could be shared with the existing line. Then somewhere, say Linwood, continue eastward with this line to Prospect or even to the VA Hospital at Van Brunt.
Hitting everyone's front door is the #1 killer of other streetcar routes.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by beautyfromashes »

normalthings wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:36 pm Hitting everyone's front door is the #1 killer of other streetcar routes.
True. I think everyone agrees KU to VA and the choice is just what route between the two. So, personally, what of the following points you find the most important to hit? Top 3 choices probably determine what route you’d prefer.

- Westport
-“Martini Corner” entertainment
- KCAI
- St Luke’s
- 39th St shops
- Broadway/39th office buildings
- Midtown Marketplace
- Uptown Theater area
- Penn ValleyCC
- Penn Valley Park
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by TheUrbanRoo »

Don't really care what exact route is. Just want something to get done & moving.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by normalthings »

$450-600 million for Streetcar. 9-10 years till opening.

$30-60 million for BRT. 7 years to open. That BRT cost is soo low I doubt it resembles anything like true BRT.

Linwood and 31st are said to have similar ridership today but Linwood has dramatically more room for regeneration and thus more potential future ridership. I would like us to look at the Omaha model of extending existing TIF’s and directing those funds to rail transit cap-ex.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by alejandro46 »

normalthings wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:12 pm $450-600 million for Streetcar. 9-10 years till opening.

$30-60 million for BRT. 7 years to open. That BRT cost is soo low I doubt it resembles anything like true BRT.

Linwood and 31st are said to have similar ridership today but Linwood has dramatically more room for regeneration and thus more potential future ridership. I would like us to look at the Omaha model of extending existing TIF’s and directing those funds to rail transit cap-ex.
Total distance is like 5.1 miles right? So around $88-$118M per mile. If you go down Main St., you also dont' need to build a mile or so of streetcar.

We need regional funding for this and the NKC expansion.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by beautyfromashes »

normalthings wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:12 pm I would like us to look at the Omaha model of extending existing TIF’s and directing those funds to rail transit cap-ex.
You mean add years to the existing streetcar property tax to fund E-W? What TIFs specifically?
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by normalthings »

beautyfromashes wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:22 pm
normalthings wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:12 pm I would like us to look at the Omaha model of extending existing TIF’s and directing those funds to rail transit cap-ex.
You mean add years to the existing streetcar property tax to fund E-W? What TIFs specifically?
downtown /urban core developments with TIF they extended the expiration of those TIFs and all of the revenue from original end to the new expiration is going to their rail project
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by TheUrbanRoo »

Seems like they’re dancing around the inevitability that this has to come to a county or regional vote. They should just embrace it.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by normalthings »

I think they’ve been clear at the presentation and since kick off that rail would need more than a TDD
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by beautyfromashes »

normalthings wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:16 pm I think they’ve been clear at the presentation and since kick off that rail would need more than a TDD
Seems we've already gone down the TDD route. Either continue that way causing people in the areas of expansion to vote themselves tax increases or fold the TDDs into a city-wide vote. Can't have both.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by grovester »

There are no more areas that can generate enough money from TDD to be self supporting.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by FlippantCitizen »

RE normalthings vs. Chris disagreement. I'm with you normalthings, on the idea that there might be more objective potential of Linwood as a ROW especially for higher capacity/speed line. If that's even on the table I'd say Linwood has the merit of allowing it. But if it's basically another curb running local tram, maybe 31st makes more sense. Direct connection at 31st and Main, bring PVP into the fold, existing built environment that could be rehabbed quickly, existing pedestrian oriented business environment much more so than Linwood which is a car sewer and a terrible street to be a ped on and has virtually no street/ped oriented businesses.

31st would immediately have a raison d'etre in terms of riding the line in an experiential manner with a number of existing street facing business and existing buildings that could be quickly rehabbed to support more of it. Linwood has no real trip generators to drive steady ridership/activity at a variety of hours other than residents already living there. Those residents certainly will still be making use of the line if it goes on 31st. These routes are so firmly in each other's catchment that sites on both streets will benefit whichever street gets the route. 31st has the potential to be a great urban environment while Linwood looks a lot more like a high speed corridor though and I'm not sure Linwood could be easily remade as a great pedestrian street like 31st street in many respects has the better bones of.

I'll prefer 31st if we are getting something similar to what's already on Main. But if they come out and say, "hey is going to be center running, higher operating speed, and maybe even the trains and platforms are longer for higher capacity. We need Linwood to make all those things happen." then yeah I'd get in line and support Linwood real quick. I just don't think that's the case now though. Honestly, as a resident near this proposed line, I imagine there are more likely trips that I'd be taking via streetcar that terminate on 31st rather than Linwood.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by normalthings »

FlippantCitizen wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:59 pm RE normalthings vs. Chris disagreement. I'm with you normalthings, on the idea that there might be more objective potential of Linwood as a ROW especially for higher capacity/speed line. If that's even on the table I'd say Linwood has the merit of allowing it. But if it's basically another curb running local tram, maybe 31st makes more sense. Direct connection at 31st and Main, bring PVP into the fold, existing built environment that could be rehabbed quickly, existing pedestrian oriented business environment much more so than Linwood which is a car sewer and a terrible street to be a ped on and has virtually no street/ped oriented businesses.

31st would immediately have a raison d'etre in terms of riding the line in an experiential manner with a number of existing street facing business and existing buildings that could be quickly rehabbed to support more of it. Linwood has no real trip generators to drive steady ridership/activity at a variety of hours other than residents already living there. Those residents certainly will still be making use of the line if it goes on 31st. These routes are so firmly in each other's catchment that sites on both streets will benefit whichever street gets the route. 31st has the potential to be a great urban environment while Linwood looks a lot more like a high speed corridor though and I'm not sure Linwood could be easily remade as a great pedestrian street like 31st street in many respects has the better bones of.

I'll prefer 31st if we are getting something similar to what's already on Main. But if they come out and say, "hey is going to be center running, higher operating speed, and maybe even the trains and platforms are longer for higher capacity. We need Linwood to make all those things happen." then yeah I'd get in line and support Linwood real quick. I just don't think that's the case now though. Honestly, as a resident near this proposed line, I imagine there are more likely trips that I'd be taking via streetcar that terminate on 31st rather than Linwood.
Per the presention, Linwood and 31st routes have similar/same ridership today but Linwood maintains a great ability for more development tomorrow. If someone wants to visit PVP (rider dead zone), you can walk from the Main Street Line!

This line also would be the line in 20 or 30 years to get extended to Raytown or Lee's Summit. I really want a future growth and extendability mindset.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by FlippantCitizen »

normalthings wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:03 pm
Per the presention, Linwood and 31st routes have similar/same ridership today but Linwood maintains a great ability for more development tomorrow. If someone wants to visit PVP (rider dead zone), you can walk from the Main Street Line!

This line also would be the line in 20 or 30 years to get extended to Raytown or Lee's Summit. I really want a future growth and extendability mindset.
The 20 or 30 years thing kind of seals the point for me. I'd rather have a line that develops a vibrant street life and culture around it quickly, immediately making the city a more attractive place to live than spend decades waiting for the built environment of Linwood to catch up and the next piece to come so the big picture finally makes sense. There will be other opportunities in the future for more robust rail routes that serve suburbs in the future. Not sure how to weight a decision now that optimizes for the long term future rather than for the present/short/and medium term.
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Re: KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

Post by beautyfromashes »

normalthings wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:03 pm This line also would be the line in 20 or 30 years to get extended to Raytown or Lee's Summit. I really want a future growth and extendability mindset.
Hard pass for me! I have zero reason to ever go to Raytown or Lee’s Summit and I’m sure not going to pay for rail for the suburbs when they didn’t pay for rail for me. The only way to reverse urban flight is to provide something you can’t get anywhere else to entice people to move back.
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