Historic streetcar systems nearly all ran in the actual center of the street with boarding occurring in what would become a travel or parking lane for cars. You can see this in some parts of systems that contain active remnants of those systems -- Toronto, Philadelphia, and San Francisco. Since these cities aren't moving their tracks, they have often built floating islands or some sort of platform to allow some semblance of accessible boarding or that keep pedestrians safe from moving traffic. Toronto is the most interesting example because their high-ridership downtown stops weren't put underground and "modernized" like Philly or SF.
In the context of the east/west conversation -- whether it's BRT or streetcar -- center running would likely have island platforms (like River Market North), which is very different from the historic systems and more like street-running light rail. Basically what was proposed in the 2008 light rail plan (below).
If you have center-running streetcar and buses on the same line do, they not use the same stops? The streetcars would have left opening doors. To use the center islands wouldn't the buses also have to have left opening doors? Just seems like it would get crowded.
beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 11:37 am
If you have center-running streetcar and buses on the same line do, they not use the same stops? The streetcars would have left opening doors. To use the center islands wouldn't the buses also have to have left opening doors? Just seems like it would get crowded.
KC doesn’t run bus on rail streets so doesn’t seem like an issue
beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 11:37 am
If you have center-running streetcar and buses on the same line do, they not use the same stops? The streetcars would have left opening doors. To use the center islands wouldn't the buses also have to have left opening doors? Just seems like it would get crowded.
KC doesn’t run bus on rail streets so doesn’t seem like an issue
So, east/west rail would eliminate bus on the same streets. Ok, thought they might keep both and was wondering how that would work.
SilentSpades24 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:05 am
In terms of overall mass-transit, regional funding may help if nothing else, provide those in the core some sort of access to opportunities our current bus system doesn't or can't address very well.
I can’t think of any.
There are many gaps in existing service. Frequent Service on most routes, weekend and evening service on routes that don't have it, certain direct connections that don't exist (JoCo/KCK to NKC), service to job centers that don't have service (Riverside Industrial Park, Edgerton Logistics Center, etc).
While I am fully for investing a lot in urban core service, it would be foolish to ignore that many job opportunities aren't in the core and aren't served (well / at all).
SilentSpades24 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:05 am
In terms of overall mass-transit, regional funding may help if nothing else, provide those in the core some sort of access to opportunities our current bus system doesn't or can't address very well.
I can’t think of any.
There are many gaps in existing service. Frequent Service on most routes, weekend and evening service on routes that don't have it, certain direct connections that don't exist (JoCo/KCK to NKC), service to job centers that don't have service (Riverside Industrial Park, Edgerton Logistics Center, etc).
While I am fully for investing a lot in urban core service, it would be foolish to ignore that many job opportunities aren't in the core and aren't served (well / at all).
Frequency, we are failing. Weekend and nighttime service, we are failing. The question I have though is how much worse do those problems get if we dilute our finite resources trying to service Edgerton? Serving job centers is a big thing to look at but they need to be in or near the core. If we let logistics parks on the fringe of the metro dictate bus routes... talk about a negative feedback loop. Maybe working 35 miles from your house and still trying to rely on transit to get there is not a reasonable expectation given the current state of our system.
Unfortunately, these are separate issues. The money flowing into urban core transit -- and the associated staffing shortages -- are operationally separate from serving Edgerton (which just had service reduced to put more service on Metcalf and 75th, btw). Coverage (vs. frequency) will always dominate the discussion because it's the most defining characteristic of access. No coverage, no access. Frequency you can dial up and down and people can still use the service (which is exactly what KCATA did during the pandemic -- very few routes were eliminated, only frequency reduced).
FlippantCitizen wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:36 pm
Frequency, we are failing. Weekend and nighttime service, we are failing. The question I have though is how much worse do those problems get if we dilute our finite resources trying to service Edgerton? Serving job centers is a big thing to look at but they need to be in or near the core. If we let logistics parks on the fringe of the metro dictate bus routes... talk about a negative feedback loop. Maybe working 35 miles from your house and still trying to rely on transit to get there is not a reasonable expectation given the current state of our system.
Better examples would be job centers such as Oak Park Mall, Zona Rosa, Village West, etc.
My point is that we can have frequent service in the core all we want, but if there aren't the jobs, or other services within the core, then the service still isn't useful in many contexts. I suppose that starts to get into a land use discussion more so than the transit discussion. Chicken and the egg.
FlippantCitizen wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:36 pm
Frequency, we are failing.
Yep. When you're on it, it moves fine and you don't notice a slow ride or anything. Just waiting for the streetcar to come takes forever and people hate the wait times.
FlippantCitizen wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:36 pm
Frequency, we are failing.
Yep. When you're on it, it moves fine and you don't notice a slow ride or anything. Just waiting for the streetcar to come takes forever and people hate the wait times.
I'd give my left nut if any bus came as often as the streetcar. 12ish minute headways for the streetcar is minimum for a usable line. Unfortunately I don't live on the street car line and have given up on the buses here due to the abysmal frequency.
SilentSpades24 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:23 pm
My point is that we can have frequent service in the core all we want, but if there aren't the jobs, or other services within the core, then the service still isn't useful in many contexts.
I've never seen more people in a city that will take a job much further away from their homes for just a little more pay. I've had friends who live in the core that would choose a job in Olathe over a job DT for just a few thousand more dollars per year. Mostly it was because of ego and status and perhaps a belief that the cost of a car is a sunk cost that didn't factor into the equation. This next generation seems more practical, weighing factors that previous generations didn't (What is the quality of my life with this job? How much time will I spend getting to/from work? Do I enjoy the environment? How flexible will my schedule be?) I think this bodes well for the city. Build an environment that can truly be car-free; one that is safe, provides education opportunities for families, is diverse in thought and people and provides an entertaining life. Build this and people will choose jobs here, even if it's less money at the beginning. Then, corporations will come.
SilentSpades24 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:23 pm
My point is that we can have frequent service in the core all we want, but if there aren't the jobs, or other services within the core, then the service still isn't useful in many contexts.
I've never seen more people in a city that will take a job much further away from their homes for just a little more pay. I've had friends who live in the core that would choose a job in Olathe over a job DT for just a few thousand more dollars per year. Mostly it was because of ego and status and perhaps a belief that the cost of a car is a sunk cost that didn't factor into the equation. This next generation seems more practical, weighing factors that previous generations didn't (What is the quality of my life with this job? How much time will I spend getting to/from work? Do I enjoy the environment? How flexible will my schedule be?) I think this bodes well for the city. Build an environment that can truly be car-free; one that is safe, provides education opportunities for families, is diverse in thought and people and provides an entertaining life. Build this and people will choose jobs here, even if it's less money at the beginning. Then, corporations will come.
My opinion is that remote work helps downtown alot. Many people take JoCo jobs (or anywhere) and live urban now because they can.
SilentSpades24 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:23 pm
My point is that we can have frequent service in the core all we want, but if there aren't the jobs, or other services within the core, then the service still isn't useful in many contexts.
I've never seen more people in a city that will take a job much further away from their homes for just a little more pay. I've had friends who live in the core that would choose a job in Olathe over a job DT for just a few thousand more dollars per year. Mostly it was because of ego and status and perhaps a belief that the cost of a car is a sunk cost that didn't factor into the equation. This next generation seems more practical, weighing factors that previous generations didn't (What is the quality of my life with this job? How much time will I spend getting to/from work? Do I enjoy the environment? How flexible will my schedule be?) I think this bodes well for the city. Build an environment that can truly be car-free; one that is safe, provides education opportunities for families, is diverse in thought and people and provides an entertaining life. Build this and people will choose jobs here, even if it's less money at the beginning. Then, corporations will come.
If the #1 choice for the route of an E/W rail line is Linwood, why did we switch stop locations on the current extension from Linwood to 31st St? Seems it would be best to have a combined stop where the lines cross.
beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:02 am
If the #1 choice for the route of an E/W rail line is Linwood, why did we switch stop locations on the current extension from Linwood to 31st St? Seems it would be best to have a combined stop where the lines cross.
Unless things change, Linwood and Main sucks to stand at. Waiting for a streetcar there, even with a transfer station, would be an experience to say the least. I think they (the transit authority) might figure it's too close to Armour at that point to put a stop there. If that wasn't the case, I imagine they would only put a streetcar stop there knowing the Home Depot Plaza would go away.
beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:02 am
If the #1 choice for the route of an E/W rail line is Linwood, why did we switch stop locations on the current extension from Linwood to 31st St? Seems it would be best to have a combined stop where the lines cross.
Not sure if it ever changed, I thought it was always 31st? It is a current bus stop and has an existing E/W bus route and good access to Swope Park and Park Reserve project. If there is a East streetcar extension there it's possible there'd be a stop pairing on Lindwood & 31st.
alejandro46 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:28 am
If there is a East streetcar extension there it's possible there'd be a stop pairing on Lindwood & 31st.
I guess that's possible. It just doesn't seem ideal to have a walk for a connection. I think the Armour stop probably had as much to do with eliminating Linwood as 31st. MAC and all the apartments probably pushed that as a stop when really there should have just been Linwood and not the two others. Too late at this point.
