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Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:07 pm
by moderne
Heading north on Main it looks like the bow of a cruise ship. Which is worse, an office building that extends with occupied floor down to ground level with an attached garage or an office building on a parking garage base?
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:12 pm
by normalthings
AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:03 pm
How is this able to go up but not Strata?
Tenant, smaller, etc
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:13 pm
by alejandro46
AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:03 pm
How is this able to go up but not Strata?
They have an deep pocketed anchor tenant (FSL). Once somebody signs a lease that allows the developer to begin financing of Strata, Strata will be built.
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:02 pm
by FangKC
Actually, they are not a tenant. They will own the building.
FangKC wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:29 pm
$79 million office tower
165,000 sq. feet
11 stories
Developer: Van Trust
Owner: Fidelity Security Life Insurance Co
300 to 320 employees.
Fidelity Security Life Insurance Co. seeks to acquire about 2.6 vacant acres at Main Street and Grand Boulevard, south of 27th Street, from Hallmark Cards Inc. The insurer will own and anchor about two-thirds of an 11-story, 165,000-square-foot office tower to be built by VanTrust Real Estate LLC.
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:06 pm
by FangKC
I wonder if Van Trust even tried to pitch Fidelity a site in the north part of the East Village?
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:01 am
by kenrbnj
I had been reading the comments on FB concerning the request for incentives for this project.
I am dumbfounded at the level of uninformed backlash concerning the use of tax incentives for a major development.
There appears to be a visceral negative response - even when the public is presented with the numeric facts: "Site currently pays $100,000/yr in taxes, $1M over ten years versus $17,500,000 in taxes over the same duration if constructed."
There was once a gentle side of me who had said, "Poor souls are misinformed."
I have adjusted that posture. I have concluded these are patently stupid people. They cannot see rationality, even when presented with simplified, numeric facts. That is: "$1M is less than $17.5M." Hopeless.
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:20 pm
by GRID
^ Especially in a city that sees so little of this type of development and in a metro area where the suburbs will give out even more corporate welfare and nobody cares.
This tifwatch group is a disaster for KCMO because they are developing a very loud and loyal following and city hall pays attention to them.
Having said that. What is with all of KC's recent larger buildings being 30-70% parking structures. Seems like the parking garages are as big or bigger than the useable parts of the buildings. Mostly office, but even the light buildings are relatively short for the size of the garages they sit on. Just seems odd. I guess the economy there is just not able to support larger/taller buildings (the actual leasable parts) and or underground garages.
At the same time, if it were not for the garages, the buildings KC has been building would have no height to them at all I guess. The one exception is the H&R Block. Imagine that sitting on a 12 story garage. It would change the feel of that entire block.
Some day KC will see 20-30 story buildings with underground parking go up again.
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:27 pm
by KCPowercat
Never heard of them
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:32 pm
by GRID
KCPowercat wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:27 pm
Never heard of them
I have relatives in the city and they comment and share kcmo tif projects on tif watch etc on facebook, so that's how I see it all the time.
I have tried to argue with them, but it's like talking to a brick wall.
KC desperately needs projects like this to get some new office space built and to keep companies downtown.
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:36 pm
by KCPowercat
They don't have a loud and loyal following. The Facebook algorithm is fooling you is my guess.
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:03 pm
by normalthings
KCPowercat wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:36 pm
They don't have a loud and loyal following. The Facebook algorithm is fooling you is my guess.
KC TIF Watch speaks at council meetings and get retweeted by Bunch (and I would assume others). You don't have to be in a bubble to be exposed to their nonsense.....
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:05 pm
by normalthings
GRID wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:20 pm
^ Especially in a city that sees so little of this type of development and in a metro area where the suburbs will give out even more corporate welfare and nobody cares.
This tifwatch group is a disaster for KCMO because they are developing a very loud and loyal following and city hall pays attention to them.
Having said that. What is with all of KC's recent larger buildings being 30-70% parking structures. Seems like the parking garages are as big or bigger than the useable parts of the buildings. Mostly office, but even the light buildings are relatively short for the size of the garages they sit on. Just seems odd. I guess the economy there is just not able to support larger/taller buildings (the actual leasable parts) and or underground garages.
At the same time, if it were not for the garages, the buildings KC has been building would have no height to them at all I guess. The one exception is the H&R Block. Imagine that sitting on a 12 story garage. It would change the feel of that entire block.
Some day KC will see 20-30 story buildings with underground parking go up again.
Look at Nashville or Austin. Big Big garages. 27&Main will be less garage than Strata or 1400Baltimore iirc.
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:09 pm
by GRID
normalthings wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:05 pm
GRID wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:20 pm
^ Especially in a city that sees so little of this type of development and in a metro area where the suburbs will give out even more corporate welfare and nobody cares.
This tifwatch group is a disaster for KCMO because they are developing a very loud and loyal following and city hall pays attention to them.
Having said that. What is with all of KC's recent larger buildings being 30-70% parking structures. Seems like the parking garages are as big or bigger than the useable parts of the buildings. Mostly office, but even the light buildings are relatively short for the size of the garages they sit on. Just seems odd. I guess the economy there is just not able to support larger/taller buildings (the actual leasable parts) and or underground garages.
At the same time, if it were not for the garages, the buildings KC has been building would have no height to them at all I guess. The one exception is the H&R Block. Imagine that sitting on a 12 story garage. It would change the feel of that entire block.
Some day KC will see 20-30 story buildings with underground parking go up again.
Look at Nashville or Austin. Big Big garages. 27&Main will be less garage than Strata or 1400Baltimore iirc.
Yeah, might be a national trend, but at least the buildings are taller in Nashville and Austin, so it just seems better proportionally. It may also be I'm just too used to the dc area where almost all parking is below ground, but back when KC did build large office towers (over 400,000 sq ft), parking was typically underground or in a different structure. I'm just not a fan of stubby pedestals, but right now that's the only way KC is getting any height at all, so I would probably choose it over underground parking.
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:13 pm
by GRID
KCPowercat wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:36 pm
They don't have a loud and loyal following. The Facebook algorithm is fooling you is my guess.
I don't know man, it's like the downtown stadium where the vast majority of comments online (on any platform) are against the stadium but you seem to think otherwise and call it basically fake social media news. I think you sometimes just don't want to see reality.
I know a lot of life long voting KCMO residents. Hyde Park, South Plaza, South KC, KC North etc and I think the anti development culture there is stronger than you may think. That's why certain people keep getting elected into city hall.
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:23 pm
by normalthings
GRID wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:09 pm
normalthings wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:05 pm
GRID wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:20 pm
^ Especially in a city that sees so little of this type of development and in a metro area where the suburbs will give out even more corporate welfare and nobody cares.
This tifwatch group is a disaster for KCMO because they are developing a very loud and loyal following and city hall pays attention to them.
Having said that. What is with all of KC's recent larger buildings being 30-70% parking structures. Seems like the parking garages are as big or bigger than the useable parts of the buildings. Mostly office, but even the light buildings are relatively short for the size of the garages they sit on. Just seems odd. I guess the economy there is just not able to support larger/taller buildings (the actual leasable parts) and or underground garages.
At the same time, if it were not for the garages, the buildings KC has been building would have no height to them at all I guess. The one exception is the H&R Block. Imagine that sitting on a 12 story garage. It would change the feel of that entire block.
Some day KC will see 20-30 story buildings with underground parking go up again.
Look at Nashville or Austin. Big Big garages. 27&Main will be less garage than Strata or 1400Baltimore iirc.
Yeah, might be a national trend, but at least the buildings are taller in Nashville and Austin, so it just seems better proportionally. It may also be I'm just too used to the dc area where almost all parking is below ground, but back when KC did build large office towers (over 400,000 sq ft), parking was typically underground or in a different structure. I'm just not a fan of stubby pedestals, but right now that's the only way KC is getting any height at all, so I would probably choose it over underground parking.
Nashville is using topography to hide some of the garages. Nashville Yards type garages could be implemented along our own downtown rail corridor.
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:37 pm
by GRID
normalthings wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:23 pm
GRID wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:09 pm
normalthings wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:05 pm
Look at Nashville or Austin. Big Big garages. 27&Main will be less garage than Strata or 1400Baltimore iirc.
Yeah, might be a national trend, but at least the buildings are taller in Nashville and Austin, so it just seems better proportionally. It may also be I'm just too used to the dc area where almost all parking is below ground, but back when KC did build large office towers (over 400,000 sq ft), parking was typically underground or in a different structure. I'm just not a fan of stubby pedestals, but right now that's the only way KC is getting any height at all, so I would probably choose it over underground parking.
Nashville is using topography to hide some of the garages. Nashville Yards type garages could be implemented along our own downtown rail corridor.
The buildings going up in Nashville are MUCH larger too.
I think the bottom line is these office buildings proposed in KC are just really small for downtown office buildings. They would be 5-6 story buildings surrounded by surface parking in the suburbs and trying to make them fit in downtown sort of requires all these above ground parking structures.
Again, it's better than nothing getting built and probably better and more feasible than underground parking for a six story building.
But yeah, that office building proposed for Main Street near the tracks will be nice since the garage can be below the Main Street viaduct.
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:41 pm
by KCPowercat
GRID wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:13 pm
KCPowercat wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:36 pm
They don't have a loud and loyal following. The Facebook algorithm is fooling you is my guess.
I don't know man, it's like the downtown stadium where the vast majority of comments online (on any platform) are against the stadium but you seem to think otherwise and call it basically fake social media news. I think you sometimes just don't want to see reality.
I know a lot of life long voting KCMO residents. Hyde Park, South Plaza, South KC, KC North etc and I think the anti development culture there is stronger than you may think. That's why certain people keep getting elected into city hall.
I didn't say there wasn't an anti development culture.
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:42 pm
by KCPowercat
normalthings wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:03 pm
KCPowercat wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:36 pm
They don't have a loud and loyal following. The Facebook algorithm is fooling you is my guess.
KC TIF Watch speaks at council meetings and get retweeted by Bunch (and I would assume others). You don't have to be in a bubble to be exposed to their nonsense.....
I just said they don't have a loud and loyal following.
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:45 pm
by GRID
KCPowercat wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:42 pm
normalthings wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:03 pm
KCPowercat wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:36 pm
They don't have a loud and loyal following. The Facebook algorithm is fooling you is my guess.
KC TIF Watch speaks at council meetings and get retweeted by Bunch (and I would assume others). You don't have to be in a bubble to be exposed to their nonsense.....
I just said they don't have a loud and loyal following.
I would not say everybody knows or follows the antitiff group, but they all seem to have the same message. Absolutely no incentives for anybody. They don't understand or care that these projects simply are not going to happen without incentives and doing nothing is a far worse option long term.
They also don't understand or care that these companies and developers can get incentives all day long from Kansas with no questions asked. If after watching KCMO's economy migrate to Kansas for decades has not convinced them by now, nothing will.
Re: Office project at 27th & Main
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:56 pm
by beautyfromashes
KCPowercat wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:42 pm
I just said they don't have a loud and loyal following.
This council and mayor are pretty weak. They capitulate to groups like KC TIF and KCTenants. When those groups see that the squeaky wheel actually got some grease, they start yelling louder. And there’s no counter movement.