5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

[smh]

Parking downtown and in River Market has been studied numerous times.

[JohnKCMO]

KCPowercat wrote:
> [quote=JohnKCMO post_id=654848 time=1676343935 user_id=250588]
> KCPowercat wrote:
> > A running event lost businesses 100's of thousands? Let's open the books
> > and prove that one.
> I can prove that my store was down close to $5,000, that day. What we made that day
> didn't pay my workers salaries. There are closed to 200 vendors operating on a
> usually busy Saturday. So open away, I have zero reason to lie to you.
> [/quote]
>
> What day was this. I want to research what happe ed that day..how long were roads
> closed for the run?
Not sure when that was (maybe 2013), but it was the very last time they allowed a marathon to course through the River Market. It was all over the news, how the businesses lost revenue that day. The Saturday farmers market actually closed up by noon. It was only one day. They had Delaware, 3rd street, Grand, and 5th streets all closed. Of course it was before they charged for parking so on top of everything else, the runners took up what little parking was available. Everyone said too "don't worry, they will bring in lots of business". Didn't happen.

[JohnKCMO]

staubio wrote:
> [quote=JohnKCMO post_id=654819 time=1676230373 user_id=250588]
> This project reduces it by over a hundred parking spaces. That is a
> significant reduction. The parking lot Harvest is taking over is also
> dedicated parking for the several hundred Market employees and for garbage
> disposal/recycling, all week. The City Market controls and sells
> discounted parking for local merchants who have to drive to work. These
> private lots, you mention, are not going to provide discounted or free
> parking to replace this one. Does anyone really believe that if the P&L
> or the Plaza didn't have immediate parking that they could keep in
> business. It seems that no one wants any parking in the River Market, but
> the only ones who can survive in that environment are Subway and Starbucks.
> Businesses saw a huge reduction in revenue during the streetcar and Walnut
> St. construction just due to a small reduction in parking. One time they
> shut the entire roads, around the City Market, down on a Saturday for some
> running event. Businesses lost hundreds of thousands in revenue that day.
> People did not want to hunt for parking and walk several blocks to shop in
> the Market. Believe me I speak from 17 years of experience, I'm not just
> complaining that I or my customers may have to walk a couple blocks. If
> the apartment project at 5th and Main is the norm on parking reduction I
> guarantee you that there won't be any businesses left in the area in a
> couple years.
> [/quote]
>
> A one-day event that comes with no other adjustments or time for people to
> make changes is not a good test. The River Market is evolving. The way
> people access it and interact with it is changing. We've seen tremendous
> usage of off-site parking and streetcar just in the last year. We're
> growing. And there is still SO much parking in the neighborhood, but the
> free parking subsidized by the city so employees can park next door means
> the market doesn't work.
>
> If employees are there most days for hours at a time, wouldn't it make
> sense for them to be the ones to walk a few blocks? It seems like most of
> this debate is about employee parking, since we've seen that customers can
> and have figured it out.
>
> We will have to work together to adjust, but this hyperbole about sudden
> doom is tiresome. Finally reaching critical mass of residential density
> within walking distance of the City Market seems like a much better sign
> for its sustainable success than living and dying by a net change of 100
> parking spaces, aka one load of streetcar passengers.

Not sure where there is parking a few blocks away from where I work, but downtown parking is $75 a month. Are you saying the businesses in the RM should go from years of free/discounted parking to having to pay and walk a few blocks so that our parking can go to apartments? You know this is a business district that residential is moving into not Residential that business is moving into. I'm willing to share but be fair and reasonable.

[JohnKCMO]

HalcyonKC wrote:
> [quote=WoodDraw post_id=654813 time=1676169910 user_id=185]
> [quote=staubio post_id=654802 time=1676147059 user_id=161]
> The 300 Wyandotte garage is $3 to park all day. It is 3 blocks from the
> City Market. It is an office building, so it is mostly empty on Saturdays,
> but it advertises excess capacity every day. There are also signs
> advertising capacity on the Second and Delaware garage. Since it is no
> longer free all day, 3rd and Grand is usually empty. There are thousands of
> spaces within two streetcar stops — let alone the rest of the route. We are
> served by at least 4 bus routes. Ridership data for the streetcar shows
> huge adoption of the off-site lots on the other side of the North Loop.
> There are so many solutions here.
>
> I have lived in the River Market for over 17 years. With every development
> came new predictions of an apocalypse, that each lost empty lot would
> "kill" the neighborhood. Yet somehow, in a city that was leveled
> for parking, the system finds a way, and the River Market is better than
> ever. But if we build a River Market neighborhood designed to store every
> car on the busy weekends, we will be the Great Mall of the Great Plains.
> Sometimes it feels like we're living in it anyway.
>
> It is true that there isn't nearly as much foot traffic and business from
> residents as their should be, which has continued to be a frustration for
> me. Businesses have never really targeted us. And so many people still just
> default to driving in and out of the neighborhood, because it is clear that
> is what we've built it for. To walk is to walk through empty parking lots
> and dark, desolate spaces. We haven't reached critical mass of residential
> density to tip into a place that has truly lively streets.
>
> But I'm not sure how all of the businesses I walk to pretty much every day
> know how I got there, so not sure what the basis of a claim that residents
> aren't showing up is.
>
> While it is easier to join the daytime crowds, any attempts for evening
> hours to cater to residents didn't last long enough to even gauge interest.
> The truth is that the City Market mostly exists in a vacuum in the way it
> regards the neighborhood. When The Bite and other vendors did regular
> evening hours and promoted them, they were quite busy.
>
> There is a ton of parking that can be a solution here. We just need to get
> out of dedicated parking for every use mindset so the parking market can
> work. But if we plan to bring far more cars into the neighborhood, we
> strain our already clogged pre-car streetscape that has been mostly severed
> from the grid, which would undermine the alternatives (bus, streetcar,
> bike, etc) and lock us into the downward spiral of car dependence.
>
> I generally want to take people at their word, but there are a lot of
> people who wanted to see this project die for many reasons and are now tied
> to this business concern as the path to kill it. Those concerns are
> legitimate, and I wish there was a chance to communicate about the
> possibilities and opportunities here instead of having a NIMBY reflex.
>
> Most of the objection raised in CPC was about employee parking, and many
> employees still park on the street. If we're worried about customer access,
> we should work to move those folks to the edges of the neighborhood in lots
> that employers can help coordinate, since they're at work for hours at a
> time. The street and adjacent parking should be for customers who may be
> less familiar with the neighborhood and are making quicker stops.
>
> As I understand it, part of the reduction in the parking design was whether
> or not more affordable units could be accommodated, which they added to the
> mix. Real talk: parking supply vs affordability is a real trade-off.
> Ironically, communication about this to business owners said that nobody
> that works in the River Market can afford to live here. Again, vicious
> cycles.
>
> And this project does not eliminate the parking, it reduces it. Neighbors
> do not want to have the neighborhood to ourselves. We love living in a
> neighborhood that is a regional destination. We just don't want to live in
> a neighborhood that doesn't value the experience on any given Tuesday
> because it is built only for Saturday.
> [/quote]
>
> I took Matt out of hibernation in style! I agree with all of this and I'm
> glad he wrote it better than me.
> [/quote]
>
> The planning meeting almost had me thinking there was a kernel of
> legitimate issue here, but after reading both sides of this, I hope City
> Harvest passes with minimal changes, or perhaps none. For the sake of this
> and future projects, the city should still take it as an action item to
> improve visibility for available weekend parking. Make it a more visible
> part of ongoing marketing, signage, perhaps code up a standard html widget
> that can be integrated into all the neighborhood businesses' websites.
> Perhaps a well-publicized app that shows current parking options and costs
> is in order (maybe that exists already for all I know). But don't cancel
> this project or delay it further.
>
> I'm reminded of the guy who claimed the streetcar was running him out of
> business, somehow having hundreds of potential customers dropped off right
> by his door was driving off his clientele. Then later Phikul Thai opened in
> the same space--with evening business hours, no less--and between carryout
> orders and dine-in they always seem to be doing a fair clip of business any
> time I've been there.
>
> Anyone who wants to run a business model where they only cater to the
> weekend crowds might ultimately be better served renting one of the stalls
> in the center of the market. They can do business without the overhead of
> renting full-time space.
I don't know where you get the idea that anyone is running a business just for the weekend? No one here can name one single business that operates just for the weekend other than the Farmers Market. We have one business that is building on a public parking lot and eliminating 75% of the parking lot. They are one business. While there are several businesses that rely on that lot. They said they would replace the parking, and they lied. No one is saying hey Harvest customers/tenant should have to walk several blocks. NO! They are putting in lots of parking for them. So the amount of cars and parking is not changing. What is changing is who is getting that parking. They are taking parking from one group of businesses' and giving it to another and no one, either can't comprehend that, or don't give a damn.

[KC_Ari]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUhOFUQDLQk

This topic is turning into this Strong Towns video.

[KCPowercat]

Seems the City Harvest people could give back a little more of their planned garage to the public. I wouldn't expect them to replace all 170 as there are other close places to park but understand the concern here.

[TheUrbanRoo]

I feel like this whole thing has blown out of proportion. It was a 4-3 vote that’s not even binding.

[beautyfromashes]

Maybe revitalization means letting business owners who can't figure out a simple quote function on a message board crash out. I'm somewhat sympathetic to an elderly person seeing their neighborhood change, but maybe it's just time to move on. The River Market could be so much more than flag shops and kitchy junk antique malls, smoke and grow shops. I'm sorry, John, it's time to get with the program and quit complaining about the parking. It's like complaining about them cutting your morning paper edition or "What happened to Phil Witt?!?!". It's been a good ride. Several people have tried to point you in the right direction. Either take the advice on a changing market or pass the baton.

[WoodDraw]

Not sure where there is parking a few blocks away from where I work, but downtown parking is $75 a month. Are you saying the businesses in the RM should go from years of free/discounted parking to having to pay and walk a few blocks so that our parking can go to apartments? You know this is a business district that residential is moving into not Residential that business is moving into. I'm willing to share but be fair and reasonable.

You truly think the community, not just your business, belongs to you. We were here first, as if we all stand in line based on arrival time. Kudos for being honest.

Willing to share? You have a business in an urban neighborhood. Sharing is at the heart of what we do.

And by willing to share, I suspect you mean everyone subsidize your parking so your businesses employees and customers can park for free in perpetuity.

What are you willing to share, John?

[JohnKCMO]

Gee thanks all for the support. All I wanted was for Harvest to replace the PUBLIC parking. You know, do what they said they would do in the beginning. All I get are a bunch of attacks. My business is just fine, with or without parking. My neighbors, who are independant own and operated stores, are not. It is obvious to me that no one on the forum is supportive of any of them. I said I supported having developers come in. You tell me I need to find parking a few blocks away. Well that lot is a few blocks away from my business. Some of you are cool and make suggestions, but others of you want to personally attack.

Hey beautyfromashes, I'm new at this forum, maybe explain the quote function instead of bashing me for it.

[HalcyonKC]

HalcyonKC wrote:
>
> Anyone who wants to run a business model where they only cater to the
> weekend crowds might ultimately be better served renting one of the stalls
> in the center of the market. They can do business without the overhead of
> renting full-time space.

I don't know where you get the idea that anyone is running a business just for the weekend? No one here can name one single business that operates just for the weekend other than the Farmers Market. We have one business that is building on a public parking lot and eliminating 75% of the parking lot. They are one business. While there are several businesses that rely on that lot. They said they would replace the parking, and they lied. No one is saying hey Harvest customers/tenant should have to walk several blocks. NO! They are putting in lots of parking for them. So the amount of cars and parking is not changing. What is changing is who is getting that parking. They are taking parking from one group of businesses' and giving it to another and no one, either can't comprehend that, or don't give a damn.

You had stated that a majority of your sales come on weekends. You also mentioned in an earlier post, "The great folks, who live in the area, mostly work weekdays and during 9-5," and that an uptick in residents hadn't helped your business. My comment was meant to echo what staubio said about City Market businesses closing early and not bothering with evening hours. Which is something that would definitely solicit business from, and be helped by, an increase in area residents. That lines up with my own lived experience--places like Burrito Bros and Habashi House are not options for dinner because they are closed by dinnertime. But staubio mentioned that The Bite seemed to do well when they had evening hours and made an effort to publicize it. So in that whole context, I'm wondering if some of these business models (arts and crafts style products particularly) aren't fundamentally geared towards the weekend crowds. And the ones that aren't (restaurants) sell themselves short by closing early. I was referencing the business models themselves in terms of when the customers come in, I'm not implying you don't work during the week.

Even if a business is geared fundamentally towards the weekend crowds, I don't think an adjustment in the parking situation will reduce anyone's business in the long term. Folks will adapt. I do think you have a point about the parking being taken away at the last minute and perhaps there is room for compromise with the city and City Harvest folks there, but I don't think there is anything sacred about the amount of parking we have now--in fact, I want to see it gradually reduced and switched over to buildings. I live in the Garment District and regularly walk through the dead sea that is the North Loop parking lot disaster area. The problems in RM are high class by comparison.

I think what businesses rely on more than parking, is the fact that RM is a cool neighborhood to visit. But that's a integral result of it being a cool place to live. A mall's parking lot is not a cool place to live, and having large surface lots that are mostly empty all week long in the heart of the neighborhood is a detractor from the area.

[WoodDraw]

This isn't their property either. No one is using eminent domain to take something away from anyone.

They're asking for a city subsidy to allow for free parking. There's a discussion to be had there, how we should advertise and subsidize parking.

But I know the cost because my friends pay it when they come to stay and my family pays it when they visit and I know what it would cost for me to pay it if I chose to in my building.

If we decide that everyone deserves free parking in this city, it will become a destination for cars on special events and not a shared community we all enjoy (and yes, pay for) together.

[TheSmokinPun]

The real honest answer is to make cars illegal.

[HalcyonKC]

The real honest answer is to make cars illegal.

I mean, the days with the most sales revenue are exactly when the City Market is closed off to vehicles, making it inviting to crowds of people in the first place. Maybe that zone should eventually even be expanded a little?

[dukuboy1]

The real honest answer is to make cars illegal.

right.....

I mean blocking off areas to be pedestrian only sure. But cars still needed to get there in most cases and places to park them.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

The real honest answer is to make cars illegal.

I mean, the days with the most sales revenue are exactly when the City Market is closed off to vehicles, making it inviting to crowds of people in the first place. Maybe that zone should eventually even be expanded a little?

Right. The busiest days for RM businesses are precisely the days with the least amount of parking available. That should tell you all you need to know about how much business is generated by parking.

Going to the City Market on a Saturday is not a drop-in for five minutes and pick something up kind of deal, people are going for at least a couple hours, and aren't going to turn around and go home if they don't immediately find parking. And, the next time they come, they'll remember what they did last time and figure it out faster. There could be zero parking spaces inside the streetcar loop and City Market would be just as popular on weekends. Weekdays are the times when you need fast/simple parking to pick up food on a lunch break or something on the way home or whatever. On the weekend, it doesn't really matter.

[Highlander]

The real honest answer is to make cars illegal.

I mean, the days with the most sales revenue are exactly when the City Market is closed off to vehicles, making it inviting to crowds of people in the first place. Maybe that zone should eventually even be expanded a little?

Right. The busiest days for RM businesses are precisely the days with the least amount of parking available. That should tell you all you need to know about how much business is generated by parking.

Going to the City Market on a Saturday is not a drop-in for five minutes and pick something up kind of deal, people are going for at least a couple hours, and aren't going to turn around and go home if they don't immediately find parking. And, the next time they come, they'll remember what they did last time and figure it out faster. There could be zero parking spaces inside the streetcar loop and City Market would be just as popular on weekends. Weekdays are the times when you need fast/simple parking to pick up food on a lunch break or something on the way home or whatever. On the weekend, it doesn't really matter.

We have been going to the market on Saturday more frequently in the last couple of months. We make a day out of it and I don't even look for parking. I park in the Liberty Memorial overflow parking and walk down to the streetcar. If it's nice outside, we may walk all the way to the market and all the way back depending on how much we purchase at the market. With the streetcar, it's not all that necessary to drive and look for a parking spot so we just eliminated that part of the trip.

[alejandro46]

I drive to Rivermarket on Sundays typically just to walk around, buy flowers, browse etc. I typically arrive earlier (930ish) from the north. I have always been able to find street parking. Just my .02, but there is plenty of parking in the River Market. Especially once the Riverfront Streetcar extension is done, I'll be able to park down there and take the streetcar up too.

[WoodDraw]

The secret here is that they want their employees to have free parking out front. Someone has to say it...

[TheLastGentleman]

Why are John’s posts displayed without formatting? They’re turning unreadable