Condo Demand in Downtown

[FangKC]

But, what's the advantage with a condo in Kansas City verses an apartment? You can get just as nice an apartment as condo for less money, there hasn't been a history of value growth in purchasing them because there really isn't a scarcity of land for new ones or prime locations and being tied to a property with a group of other people seems hazardous to me. Sure, the people that are controlling the HOA could be realistic and nice now, but that could change rather quickly. The risk seems to outweigh any value you receive.

There are people who want to design their interior space to their own taste which means replacing kitchen cabinets and appliances, choosing different flooring or carpeting, and modifying the layout of a three-bedroom into a two-bedroom with an enhanced-sized bedroom suite with a larger bathroom and more closet space. They opt to live in townhouse or apartment building condo communities because they don't want to be responsible for yard upkeep or exterior building maintenance.

Another reason is that if you plan to live in a place for a long time, you can control your monthly living expenses through a fixed mortgage. Buying a property usually reduces one's monthly expenses over a long period. Yes, the maintenance fee can be raised, but in general, you will end up paying less.

In rental apartments, your rent likely goes up every year and in some cases, it might increase enough to force you to move somewhere else. Building ownership can change and suddenly you can't get things fixed timely, or anyone to answer a phone call.

Or this:

...
“The property is now managed by Rubicon Realty, based in Arizona,” according to a press release from KC Tenants. “As of two weeks ago, the new owner sent notices to tenants at the property, informing them that their leases will not be renewed. Tenants in the building, all of whom are immigrants or refugees, do not have anywhere else to go.”

They were offered new lease agreements at nearly triple the current rent, going from $300 or $400 to $1,100. Tenants have said they won’t go when their leases are up later this month. They’re also asking for their appliances, broken windows and apartments to be repaired.
...

https://northeastnews.net/pages/north-l ... e-housing/

Owning your apartment or townhouse means you are not subject to the whims of a landlord.

Not all condo associations are apartments. There are single family home subdivisions that are set up like condo associations. Exterior house maintenance, snow removal, and landscaping is part of your association fees.

[smh]

Slim to none. Condos are a nightmare for not just banks and lenders, but also for experienced homebuyers. Anyone well educated and versed on the matter stays away from condos in KC. In large condo rich city's where condo's are the norm that's not always the case, but most condo projects here are not the norm and are a nightmare. There's no indication of that changing in the future.

I agree the chances are slim but your statement about experienced buyers and anyone educated is a gross generalization and simply untrue. Sure, some condo buildings have problems but not all of them. If you're an experienced home buyer and well-versed on the matter then you just do your due diligence. There are some excellent condo buildings downtown. It's not like it's a city issue. The Missouri Uniform Condominium Act is well constructed and provides plenty of protection to buyers and owners. But just like buying a house, there are many factors to consider and it's my experience that most buyers (and their agents) don't bother reading the fine print. And there is a lot of fine print attached to a condo.

My sense is a lot of the condo buildings downtown are poorly managed, or have had to spend a lot of sweat equity pulling themselves out of poor management. Definitely some exceptions out there.

I'm curious if anyone has much exposure to condos on the Plaza? Down that way it seems every building is condo, though not really any new ones since 2007ish. Basically I'm curious if large, long-established condo buildings like the Sulgrave Regency on the Plaza have more "professional" experiences because their size allows for more in-house staff, etc. Where I lived in Philadelphia we had ~500 units which meant in-house property management, a live-in building engineer, etc. It was refreshing as compared to the condos I'd lived in in KC which were always in a 25-50ish unit office conversion and financially strapped thanks to underfunding by developers and generally poor management by management companies.

[langosta]

We took a deep dive into buying a condo on the plaza. Not impressed! There is no modern product and services lack vs. expectations.

[smh]

We took a deep dive into buying a condo on the plaza. Not impressed! There is no modern product and services lack vs. expectations.

Oh that is super interesting. Lots of 1970s vibes? Or even earlier? What services did you find absent? Each of the buildings downtown I lived in were basically service-free, haha.

[taxi]

My point was that they are not all the same and blanket statements do not apply. Also, some condos are an excellent investment.

[smh]

My point was that they are not all the same and blanket statements do not apply. Also, some condos are an excellent investment.

Very true!

[im2kull]

Slim to none. Condos are a nightmare for not just banks and lenders, but also for experienced homebuyers. Anyone well educated and versed on the matter stays away from condos in KC. In large condo rich city's where condo's are the norm that's not always the case, but most condo projects here are not the norm and are a nightmare. There's no indication of that changing in the future.

I agree the chances are slim but your statement about experienced buyers and anyone educated is a gross generalization and simply untrue. Sure, some condo buildings have problems but not all of them. If you're an experienced home buyer and well-versed on the matter then you just do your due diligence. There are some excellent condo buildings downtown. It's not like it's a city issue. The Missouri Uniform Condominium Act is well constructed and provides plenty of protection to buyers and owners. But just like buying a house, there are many factors to consider and it's my experience that most buyers (and their agents) don't bother reading the fine print. And there is a lot of fine print attached to a condo.

Your statement is correct. You make excellent points when stating to read the fine print, and to understand RSMo 448. However, the problems I am alluding to are those that cannot be fixed by doing both of those things. The problem with condos in KC that I have seen and continue to see is a lack of disclosure and compliance with 448. Sellers, HOAs, and Realtors have all been complacent in allowing sales to occur with inaccurate resale certificate information (Misleading, or in many cases.. No certificate at all) being attached. Thus, even the most prudent of buyers cannot make a fully informed decision. Hence the problems and lawsuits many KC area condos are caught up in.. IE: Western Auto, and another major one you'll be hearing about shortly.

Having protections in place is great. It's just a shame they rely on information from humans. Humans who ultimately fail to adhere to those protections, whether that's on purpose or not. Inexperienced sellers, buyers, and realtors compound the problems caused by unscrupulous HOAs, sellers, and realtors by not being able to counter those unscrupulous persons.

[langosta]

We took a deep dive into buying a condo on the plaza. Not impressed! There is no modern product and services lack vs. expectations.

Oh that is super interesting. Lots of 1970s vibes? Or even earlier? What services did you find absent? Each of the buildings downtown I lived in were basically service-free, haha.

Sulgrave Regency are 60s or 70s designs.

Alameda has some service amenities via Intercon but it’s Intercon and not in building. The condo tower from ~2007 is too small to have amenities or services.

The hole in the market Two or 3 Light comlarsbke condo buildings and modern services/amenities

[TheLastGentleman]

I’ve been imagining condos around the Kauffman Center. Fancy condos and a fancy classical music hall seem to go together, thematically

[moderne]

The Sulgrave/Regency are undeniably sixties, but most owner occupied units especially on the upper floors and north sides have been completely remodeled. This also includes glass balcony railings replacing the "chicken wire" and removal of the knee wall in the living room windows. Many have the rolling window walls that can complety retract in nice weather.
Condos around KCPA would be nice, but I picture row mansions like Boston's Commonwealth.

[taxi]

Your statement is correct. You make excellent points when stating to read the fine print, and to understand RSMo 448. However, the problems I am alluding to are those that cannot be fixed by doing both of those things. The problem with condos in KC that I have seen and continue to see is a lack of disclosure and compliance with 448. Sellers, HOAs, and Realtors have all been complacent in allowing sales to occur with inaccurate resale certificate information (Misleading, or in many cases.. No certificate at all) being attached. Thus, even the most prudent of buyers cannot make a fully informed decision. Hence the problems and lawsuits many KC area condos are caught up in.. IE: Western Auto, and another major one you'll be hearing about shortly.

Having protections in place is great. It's just a shame they rely on information from humans. Humans who ultimately fail to adhere to those protections, whether that's on purpose or not. Inexperienced sellers, buyers, and realtors compound the problems caused by unscrupulous HOAs, sellers, and realtors by not being able to counter those unscrupulous persons.

Never underestimate the greed of (most) realtors. Or anyone else, for that matter. This is kind of a chicken and egg scenario. As more condos come online, buyers will become more educated and the bad HOAs will have to shape up. There was a gold rush by apartment owners in the early 2000's that led to tons of condo conversions, mostly around the Plaza, until the market fell out in 2007/2008. Most were rushed by developers who either didn't care about the longevity of their projects or didn't know any better. It's super difficult, ever since, to convert a project to condos due to regulations/the Dodd-Frank act that was really designed to deal with big failed projects in places like Miami and Vegas. While it may have been useful, it was hurtful to markets like ours and all smaller projects. But condos aren't inherently bad and someday, I hope within my lifetime, we will see a thriving condo market downtown. In the meantime, I've got one to sell you!

[TheUrbanRoo]

I still think Fang is right that the first new condo's to be built downtown are probably gonna be with the Royals new stadium.

[im2kull]

In the meantime, I've got one to sell you!

DM me!

[earthling]

I still think Fang is right that the first new condo's to be built downtown are probably gonna be with the Royals new stadium.

As mentioned earlier in thread, hirise condos are rarely built up front anymore. Developers typically have to sell over 50% of units upfront before construction can start - not easy and puts buyers at risk. Instead most buildings intended for condo start as leased apts, wait til fully leased and then eventually transitioned to condo.

[FangKC]

It's possible a new hybrid condo/rental building will be built next to the stadium. The upper floors will be the condos. The developer will probably get a sense of how many presales there are and devote that many floors as condo, and once the building is open and occupied, they will convert another floor, and then another floor until the entire building is condo. The first buyers will pay cash. The building will likely be fancier than the Cordish offerings so far.

[Cratedigger]

I still think Fang is right that the first new condo's to be built downtown are probably gonna be with the Royals new stadium.

As mentioned earlier in thread, hirise condos are rarely built up front anymore. Developers typically have to sell over 50% of units upfront before construction can start - not easy and puts buyers at risk. Instead most buildings intended for condo start as leased apts, wait til fully leased and then eventually transitioned to condo.

Would love to see this happen in the old P&L tower

[Cratedigger]

It's possible a new hybrid condo/rental building will be built next to the stadium. The upper floors will be the condos. The developer will probably get a sense of how many presales there are and devote that many floors as condo, and once the building is open and occupied, they will convert another floor, and then another floor until the entire building is condo. The first buyers will pay cash. The building will likely be fancier than the Cordish offerings so far.

Or a condo/hotel mix?

Very common in other markets and could be combined with a higher end hotel that KC needs such as a W or Omni

I’m picturing an infinity pool looking out towards the stadium

[TheLastGentleman]

Would love to see this happen in the old P&L tower

If the p&l tower gets converted out of apartments, I’d prefer it be a hotel. Then let the public use the observation deck, as was originally intended. If that building turned condo, the observation deck would basically be permanently private, and I guarantee like 10 people a year would even regularly use it. I don’t think it even gets much use now

[FangKC]

It's possible a new hybrid condo/rental building will be built next to the stadium. The upper floors will be the condos. The developer will probably get a sense of how many presales there are and devote that many floors as condo, and once the building is open and occupied, they will convert another floor, and then another floor until the entire building is condo. The first buyers will pay cash. The building will likely be fancier than the Cordish offerings so far.

Or a condo/hotel mix?

Very common in other markets and could be combined with a higher end hotel that KC needs such as a W or Omni

I’m picturing an infinity pool looking out towards the stadium

That's a possibility as well. In a high-end building, hotel amenities would be a selling point especially if cleaning staff and food service were available to the apartments.

[beautyfromashes]

If the p&l tower gets converted out of apartments, I’d prefer it be a hotel. Then let the public use the observation deck, as was originally intended. If that building turned condo, the observation deck would basically be permanently private, and I guarantee like 10 people a year would even regularly use it. I don’t think it even gets much use now

It's a really cool space, though not very big. The last time I was up there it was set up with bars. Would be a perfect spot for an Old Fashioned with the art deco glass above you. I could almost see them doing something similar to the Mercury Room with ultra-high cost entry fee.