Four Light

Come here for discussion about the new downtown entertainment district.
earthling
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Re: Four Light

Post by earthling »

DColeKC wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 8:42 am
earthling wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:06 pm Having followed the retail sector for 20 years (and as a CRE PE investor) am not aware of spaces never once leased out for many years despite incentives when nearby districts vacancy is essentially ideal (nearly all of these not receiving incentives). Cordish has been a great catalyst for downtown but they have also perhaps added risk related to city bonds by being unnecessarily too selective on the retail end. And yes, using essentially the same curtain wall for all residential buildings is worthy of perpetual criticism.
They’re in constant communication with the city and if the city had any concerns on how the district was being operated they’d voice those concerns publicly. No one is saying they’ve been “too” selective that’s in the loop because they’re witnessed the efforts made. It’s easy to sit here and be critical when you know nothing about the situation and only have the vacancy comps to lean on.

Good news on curtain wall is they didn’t essentially use the same material. If your complaint is the towers look too similar than carry on with your criticism of them executing that purposeful plan.
Am curious to understand the 'situation' that justifies leaving retail spaces empty for years when nearby spaces have less issues being leased. Cordish branding?

This has been a lost opportunity for revenue and reducing risk related to city bonds (meanwhile rest of downtown higher occupied). Pursuing any retailer that downtown could use and being less concerned about being 'on brand' as you often put it would reduce risk further. Given the incentives, reduced lease rates would outweigh the zero revenue generation for many years (even before pandemic). Given P&L is a public/private partnership, the 'situation' should be disclosed publicly.

On curtain wall, different materials with same curtain design is still essentially the same curtain design. If each building doesn't have its own identity, it becomes 'the projects'.
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DColeKC
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Re: Four Light

Post by DColeKC »

earthling wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:06 pm
DColeKC wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 8:42 am
earthling wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:06 pm Having followed the retail sector for 20 years (and as a CRE PE investor) am not aware of spaces never once leased out for many years despite incentives when nearby districts vacancy is essentially ideal (nearly all of these not receiving incentives). Cordish has been a great catalyst for downtown but they have also perhaps added risk related to city bonds by being unnecessarily too selective on the retail end. And yes, using essentially the same curtain wall for all residential buildings is worthy of perpetual criticism.
They’re in constant communication with the city and if the city had any concerns on how the district was being operated they’d voice those concerns publicly. No one is saying they’ve been “too” selective that’s in the loop because they’re witnessed the efforts made. It’s easy to sit here and be critical when you know nothing about the situation and only have the vacancy comps to lean on.

Good news on curtain wall is they didn’t essentially use the same material. If your complaint is the towers look too similar than carry on with your criticism of them executing that purposeful plan.
Am curious to understand the 'situation' that justifies leaving retail spaces empty for years when nearby spaces have less issues being leased. Cordish branding?

This has been a lost opportunity for revenue and reducing risk related to city bonds (meanwhile rest of downtown higher occupied). Pursuing any retailer that downtown could use and being less concerned about being 'on brand' as you often put it would reduce risk further. Given the incentives, reduced lease rates would outweigh the zero revenue generation for many years (even before pandemic). Given P&L is a public/private partnership, the 'situation' should be disclosed publicly.

On curtain wall, different materials with same curtain design is still essentially the same curtain design. If each building doesn't have its own identity, it becomes 'the projects'.
Public/private partnerships don’t require a private business to disclose proprietary information or financial information. They are very transparent with the city which is why you don’t hear the city calling them out like they recently called out the downtown stadium process.

Not sure what nearby spaces you’re referring to but most landlords don’t have 9 city blocks to worry about. If I’m a landlord and own one location, I’m wanting to get it leased and don’t care if it’s literally next door to a competitor. Example: A jimmy John’s next door or across the street from picklemans.

It’s not about it being “on brand”, a phrase I haven’t used btw. This isn’t a one sided project like a shopping mall or a famous shopping district like the plaza. This is a multi-functional 9-block neighborhood built literally from the ground up from nothing. You only want one or two tenants in the same category based on demand and the particular category. Let’s use BBQ as an example. Can the district support another bbq place without hurting Joes Icehouse? If so, you’d want it as far from Joes as possible. Thus making it harder to accomplish and possibly less desirable for a potential tenant.

I can’t believe I’m explaining this to a CRE investor who should know these things but maybe you’ve never dealt with a larger property that has retail, residential and entertainment under the same management group. Maybe you’re not a successful investor? You clearly don’t know what a long term master development plan is or how it works.

Curtain wall: So now your beef is with the design and NOT the material. Forever you harped on the glass and never mentioned the design.

Your comment about the projects is just ignorant.
earthling
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Re: Four Light

Post by earthling »

DColeKC wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:19 pm It’s not about it being “on brand”, a phrase I haven’t used btw.
search.php?keywords=%22on+brand%22&term ... mit=Search

We're not hearing any explanation on why retail spaces were left empty while rest of downtown simply doesn't have the issue and it's spun with trying to discredit those who challenge it. The Cordish 'branding' appears to be the explanation that would stand out most. Maybe it's not but that's what comes across.

This also fits into the 'branding' narrative...
DColeKC wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:31 pm Most landlords are whores and will take anything, I’m glad Cordish is playing the long game here and not strictly in this for profit.
Easier to do with incentives that may put city at risk. edit: Can be interpreted as exploiting incentives.

And the basic design of Light buildings have also been often brought up, specifically pointing out often it was not just about the glass but about essentially the same curtain wall. edit: The general message has been to give each building its own identity.

BTW, managed to retire early as a GenXr thanks to world of PE investing partly in CRE. Have studied various CRE sectors broadly for 20 years .
Last edited by earthling on Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Four Light

Post by TheLastGentleman »

Empty retail means less eyes on the street, a critical component of a safe street.
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Cratedigger
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Re: Four Light

Post by Cratedigger »

Glass starting to go in on the garage and the level just above the pool/community areas!

Image
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Four Light

Post by beautyfromashes »

We probably will be able to measure the success of DT by the size of the garages built.
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normalthings
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Re: Four Light

Post by normalthings »

Floor of 16 or 17 being poured. 10 more to go?
moderne
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Re: Four Light

Post by moderne »

That glass bay will run up most of the height of the building visually connecting the parking podium with rest of the building. An improvement over 2 light that looks like a building sitting atop a garage from the south. Also will add a vertical element that will be visually slimming, like a chubby person wearing stripes.
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Re: Four Light

Post by DColeKC »

Had a conversation a few days back with the former local lead on all these projects. He mentioned last he knew, 4L was still planned to be a residential and hotel combo. 200+ key, 4 star hotel. If that doesn't happen, a 4 star stand alone hotel is still in the works within the PNL district.
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normalthings
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Re: Four Light

Post by normalthings »

Have heard radically different from someone actively working on this project. 4 Light is active though.

I hope we get a 4 star hotel in P&L. Feels like hotel capacity and quality of the CC itself are what needs addressing next.
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Cratedigger
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Re: Four Light

Post by Cratedigger »

Just awesome to hear there’s movement on this
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DColeKC
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Re: Four Light

Post by DColeKC »

normalthings wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:05 pm Have heard radically different from someone actively working on this project. 4 Light is active though.

I hope we get a 4 star hotel in P&L. Feels like hotel capacity and quality of the CC itself are what needs addressing next.
Major changes coming for this one. Including the designers.

Hotel portion is far more dependent on status of the economy than residential. Exciting if one of these is a combo because that means 400-450 units which means height!
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Chris Stritzel
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Re: Four Light

Post by Chris Stritzel »

I would be shocked if this exceeds 3 Light’s slanted roof height.
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DColeKC
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Re: Four Light

Post by DColeKC »

Chris Stritzel wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 11:44 am I would be shocked if this exceeds 3 Light’s slanted roof height.
They do a proper financial analysis for each building to be a combo hotel/residential. In 2016, they even discussed this idea for Three Light with the city. While 4L may not be the combo building, it's being considered and a Cordish built hotel in PNL will happen at some point.

IF 4L were to be a combo, it would exceed 3L in height but not by a massive amount considering the footprint available. The 3L lot is around 29,000sf and the 4L lot is 33,000sf.

If I had to predict, I'd say the hotel portion gets punted with the current economic outlook not being great. Next project up to the plate will be across the interstate.
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FangKC
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Re: Four Light

Post by FangKC »

If it's the Mainstreet Theater block, will 4L be L-shaped and wrapped to have an entrance on both Baltimore and Main? Or will it just be a retail space facing Main?
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Re: Four Light

Post by DColeKC »

FangKC wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 8:15 pm If it's the Mainstreet Theater block, will 4L be L-shaped and wrapped to have an entrance on both Baltimore and Main? Or will it just be a retail space facing Main?
All the plans I've ever seen have been for a residential/hotel combo with two separate entrances. If it's only residential, I'm not sure if they'd keep two or make main retail entrance only. They'll want the building to have a Main Street address, not sure how that impacts things.
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Re: Four Light

Post by TheUrbanRoo »

With the cap being built, it's a no-brainer to put some retail/restaurant on that end of 4L given the amount of foot traffic from the park right there.
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Re: Four Light

Post by DColeKC »

UMKC Roo wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 2:09 am With the cap being built, it's a no-brainer to put some retail/restaurant on that end of 4L given the amount of foot traffic from the park right there.
Yes, just like they’re doing with three light.
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Re: Four Light

Post by TheUrbanRoo »

Two large pieces of construction equipment were at the 4L site today
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normalthings
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Re: Four Light

Post by normalthings »

UMKC Roo wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 5:15 pm Two large pieces of construction equipment were at the 4L site today
Need a. Photo
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