Four Light

Come here for discussion about the new downtown entertainment district.
User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 33840
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Re: Four Light

Post by KCPowercat »

rxlexi wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:43 am
beautyfromashes wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:21 am It'd be worth it. They'd rent every retail space they have if viable rooftop was built out and included: old Sprint store space, Famous Dave's, Bar Louie.
Drunken Fish had an awesome rooftop dining/bar area that never seemed particularly well used, and I believe the space is currently empty. Agree with your overall point though, the views are or would be fantastic, and rooftop bars fit perfectly with the overall P&L vibe.
The inability to capitalize on that rooftop maybe one of the P&L's biggest disappointments behind Main Street retail.
User avatar
DColeKC
Ambassador
Posts: 3731
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:50 am

Re: Four Light

Post by DColeKC »

KCPowercat wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 12:05 am
rxlexi wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:43 am
beautyfromashes wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:21 am It'd be worth it. They'd rent every retail space they have if viable rooftop was built out and included: old Sprint store space, Famous Dave's, Bar Louie.
Drunken Fish had an awesome rooftop dining/bar area that never seemed particularly well used, and I believe the space is currently empty. Agree with your overall point though, the views are or would be fantastic, and rooftop bars fit perfectly with the overall P&L vibe.
The inability to capitalize on that rooftop maybe one of the P&L's biggest disappointments behind Main Street retail.
Seems like that is a failure of the tenant. Can’t expect the developer to build it and operate for you.

And sure, blame the retail situation on the landlord. Why would they want people in those spaces paying good money helping their bottom line when it can just sit empty and be a negative impact to the budget?!

I think you need to realize there are empty spaces for certain reasons, but a lack of trying or some conspiracy theory crap about keeping spaces empty just because is ridiculous.

The current empty spaces represent multiple millions in leasing revenue potential each year. Real world factors are why they’re empty, that’s it.
User avatar
beautyfromashes
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 7189
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Four Light

Post by beautyfromashes »

DColeKC wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 10:19 am The current empty spaces represent multiple millions in leasing revenue potential each year. Real world factors are why they’re empty, that’s it.
I'm honestly interested in what you feel those real-world factors are? (Besides Covid, of course, because that is well known)
User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 33840
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Re: Four Light

Post by KCPowercat »

DColeKC wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 10:19 am
KCPowercat wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 12:05 am
rxlexi wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:43 am

Drunken Fish had an awesome rooftop dining/bar area that never seemed particularly well used, and I believe the space is currently empty. Agree with your overall point though, the views are or would be fantastic, and rooftop bars fit perfectly with the overall P&L vibe.
The inability to capitalize on that rooftop maybe one of the P&L's biggest disappointments behind Main Street retail.
Seems like that is a failure of the tenant. Can’t expect the developer to build it and operate for you.

And sure, blame the retail situation on the landlord. Why would they want people in those spaces paying good money helping their bottom line when it can just sit empty and be a negative impact to the budget?!

I think you need to realize there are empty spaces for certain reasons, but a lack of trying or some conspiracy theory crap about keeping spaces empty just because is ridiculous.

The current empty spaces represent multiple millions in leasing revenue potential each year. Real world factors are why they’re empty, that’s it.
Did I say Cordish one time?
User avatar
DColeKC
Ambassador
Posts: 3731
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:50 am

Re: Four Light

Post by DColeKC »

KCPowercat wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:30 pm
DColeKC wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 10:19 am
KCPowercat wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 12:05 am

The inability to capitalize on that rooftop maybe one of the P&L's biggest disappointments behind Main Street retail.
Seems like that is a failure of the tenant. Can’t expect the developer to build it and operate for you.

And sure, blame the retail situation on the landlord. Why would they want people in those spaces paying good money helping their bottom line when it can just sit empty and be a negative impact to the budget?!

I think you need to realize there are empty spaces for certain reasons, but a lack of trying or some conspiracy theory crap about keeping spaces empty just because is ridiculous.

The current empty spaces represent multiple millions in leasing revenue potential each year. Real world factors are why they’re empty, that’s it.
Did I say Cordish one time?
Yes, you said it’s a disappointment of the district. Drunken fish’s inability to capitalize would be more accurate.
User avatar
DColeKC
Ambassador
Posts: 3731
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:50 am

Re: Four Light

Post by DColeKC »

beautyfromashes wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 11:06 am
DColeKC wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 10:19 am The current empty spaces represent multiple millions in leasing revenue potential each year. Real world factors are why they’re empty, that’s it.
I'm honestly interested in what you feel those real-world factors are? (Besides Covid, of course, because that is well known)
The overall state of retail shopping took a dive in 2009 and the retail apocalypse caused by several factors has been going since. When retailers go from 500 stores to 150, they’re going to be extremely selective on those locations. Downtown has made strides but still lacks the population density for retailers to pick PNL over other locations across the metro.
User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 33840
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Re: Four Light

Post by KCPowercat »

DColeKC wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 6:16 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:30 pm
DColeKC wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 10:19 am

Seems like that is a failure of the tenant. Can’t expect the developer to build it and operate for you.

And sure, blame the retail situation on the landlord. Why would they want people in those spaces paying good money helping their bottom line when it can just sit empty and be a negative impact to the budget?!

I think you need to realize there are empty spaces for certain reasons, but a lack of trying or some conspiracy theory crap about keeping spaces empty just because is ridiculous.

The current empty spaces represent multiple millions in leasing revenue potential each year. Real world factors are why they’re empty, that’s it.
Did I say Cordish one time?
Yes, you said it’s a disappointment of the district. Drunken fish’s inability to capitalize would be more accurate.
I meant from the perspective of it as an asset. I don't blame Cordish one bit for either of those things. Power and light doesn't equal Cordish, they may go away someday and someone else run it.
User avatar
GRID
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 17083
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Four Light

Post by GRID »

KCPowercat wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 6:35 pm
DColeKC wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 6:16 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:30 pm

Did I say Cordish one time?
Yes, you said it’s a disappointment of the district. Drunken fish’s inability to capitalize would be more accurate.
I meant from the perspective of it as an asset. I don't blame Cordish one bit for either of those things. Power and light doesn't equal Cordish, they may go away someday and someone else run it.
I hope not. Cordish is not perfect, but I think if anybody else ran that district it would be mostly vacant within five years. Can you imagine if the owners of the plaza got ahold of that district?
User avatar
beautyfromashes
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 7189
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Four Light

Post by beautyfromashes »

GRID wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:48 pm I hope not. Cordish is not perfect, but I think if anybody else ran that district it would be mostly vacant within five years. Can you imagine if the owners of the plaza got ahold of that district?
idk. There are other development companies in this market that could run P&L just fine. They probably would even get some synergy by having other developments in the metro already.
User avatar
DColeKC
Ambassador
Posts: 3731
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:50 am

Re: Four Light

Post by DColeKC »

beautyfromashes wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:20 pm
GRID wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:48 pm I hope not. Cordish is not perfect, but I think if anybody else ran that district it would be mostly vacant within five years. Can you imagine if the owners of the plaza got ahold of that district?
idk. There are other development companies in this market that could run P&L just fine. They probably would even get some synergy by having other developments in the metro already.
You're joking right? You're not going to find a local development company that's going to the extents Cordish has. They've put money on the table for other downtown initiates that don't directly impact their bottom line as well.

They def haven't done anything to deter other developers from doing things downtown either.

Instead of pretending there's a conspiracy or a lack of effort to get all spaces occupied, why don't we look at the reality of the situation. Outside factors dominate the situation.

(*I'm aware this is a pro-cordish take)
User avatar
beautyfromashes
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 7189
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Four Light

Post by beautyfromashes »

DColeKC wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:41 am You're joking right? You're not going to find a local development company that's going to the extents Cordish has. They've put money on the table for other downtown initiates that don't directly impact their bottom line as well.

They def haven't done anything to deter other developers from doing things downtown either.

Instead of pretending there's a conspiracy or a lack of effort to get all spaces occupied, why don't we look at the reality of the situation. Outside factors dominate the situation.

(*I'm aware this is a pro-cordish take)
CBRE does a pretty good job in Overland Park. Combine them with PB&J to develop some new concepts and P&L would still function fine. There really isn't anything Cordish has brought to the district that is a wow! tenant. Rents might be cheaper with another vendor, but they probably would do a better job filling the space up, probably with local concepts. I'm sure Cordish is a great company, and I REALLY don't want to argue that fact with you. But Kansas City is probably small potatoes for them. There are no economies of scale like other players in the market that don't just do one district and Cordish has more prominent cities they are also working.
User avatar
Cratedigger
Valencia Place
Valencia Place
Posts: 1814
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:32 pm

Re: Four Light

Post by Cratedigger »

beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:09 am
DColeKC wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:41 am You're joking right? You're not going to find a local development company that's going to the extents Cordish has. They've put money on the table for other downtown initiates that don't directly impact their bottom line as well.

They def haven't done anything to deter other developers from doing things downtown either.

Instead of pretending there's a conspiracy or a lack of effort to get all spaces occupied, why don't we look at the reality of the situation. Outside factors dominate the situation.

(*I'm aware this is a pro-cordish take)
CBRE does a pretty good job in Overland Park. Combine them with PB&J to develop some new concepts and P&L would still function fine. There really isn't anything Cordish has brought to the district that is a wow! tenant. Rents might be cheaper with another vendor, but they probably would do a better job filling the space up, probably with local concepts. I'm sure Cordish is a great company, and I REALLY don't want to argue that fact with you. But Kansas City is probably small potatoes for them. There are no economies of scale like other players in the market that don't just do one district and Cordish has more prominent cities they are also working.
Cordish is the only developer building highrises downtown. Sure it's subsidized, but until another developer starts building up, I'm not going to wish for someone else to step in and manage.
User avatar
beautyfromashes
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 7189
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Four Light

Post by beautyfromashes »

Cratedigger wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:25 am Cordish is the only developer building highrises downtown. Sure it's subsidized, but until another developer starts building up, I'm not going to wish for someone else to step in and manage.
Not talking about the condo towers. We were talking about the district. The condo towers will always be owned by Cordish, unless they sell them. The retail portion is managed by Cordish but built by the city.
TheUrbanRoo
Alameda Tower
Alameda Tower
Posts: 1277
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2022 8:39 pm

Re: Four Light

Post by TheUrbanRoo »

They really should let some of 4L be condos so people can buy in on downtown
User avatar
GRID
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 17083
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Four Light

Post by GRID »

beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:50 am
Cratedigger wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:25 am Cordish is the only developer building highrises downtown. Sure it's subsidized, but until another developer starts building up, I'm not going to wish for someone else to step in and manage.
Not talking about the condo towers. We were talking about the district. The condo towers will always be owned by Cordish, unless they sell them. The retail portion is managed by Cordish but built by the city.
The towers are a big part of the reason the P&L District is doing okay. Plus, I'm pretty sure Cordish has actually invested in many of the tenants in P&L coming up with their own concepts etc all while also working with local tenants. Most companies would just leave spaces empty before coming up with their own concepts and the risk involved with that.

I can't think of another developer that would have been anywhere near as successful with the P&L District as Cordish has and they are still basically the only company that has even tried with any real effort. They have been somewhat slow to build their towers, but it only appears slow because they are the only ones building 25 story apartment towers in KC.

If there were more cranes in KC, it would not be such a big deal that the cordish towers are five years apart.
User avatar
beautyfromashes
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 7189
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Four Light

Post by beautyfromashes »

GRID wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:04 pm The towers are a big part of the reason the P&L District is doing okay. Plus, I'm pretty sure Cordish has actually invested in many of the tenants in P&L coming up with their own concepts etc all while also working with local tenants. Most companies would just leave spaces empty before coming up with their own concepts and the risk involved with that.

I can't think of another developer that would have been anywhere near as successful with the P&L District as Cordish has and they are still basically the only company that has even tried with any real effort. They have been somewhat slow to build their towers, but it only appears slow because they are the only ones building 25 story apartment towers in KC.
I'm just talking retail and food. I'm glad P&L is there and the residential was sorely needed and is a big win for DT. But, the retail is no better than Park Place or other small developments in town. The food establishments sure aren't better and there really isn't any retail besides Rally House. So, that would definitely be better at PP. I just don't see what they've done that can be counted as any big win, honestly. Was expecting more.
earthling
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8519
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:27 pm
Location: milky way, orion arm

Re: Four Light

Post by earthling »

What's the latest P&L retail vacancy? Someone estimated 15% a while back, which was about the same as Plaza until recent lease announcements (from parent companies nearing bankruptcy territory). Metro vacancy is below 7% and urban core vacancies are even lower. So Cordish isn't doing something right on the retail front. They have been too selective with the retail aspect, essentially exploiting incentives.
User avatar
beautyfromashes
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 7189
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Four Light

Post by beautyfromashes »

earthling wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:07 pm What's the latest P&L retail vacancy? Someone estimated 15% a while back, which was about the same as Plaza until recent lease announcements (from parent companies nearing bankruptcy territory). Metro vacancy is below 7% and urban core vacancies are even lower. So Cordish isn't doing something right on the retail front. They have been too selective with the retail aspect, essentially exploiting incentives.
I don't think I'd call it exploitation, but they've definitely set their financials on what they expect to receive and are sticking to it instead of adjusting. I'd guess they're starting to have enough self-made traffic with Light 3 being built that demand will justify retail rent and locations will start filling up. Just took a lot longer than expected. They essentially stuck with their game plan instead of dropping prices and grinding desperately for local developments.
earthling
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8519
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:27 pm
Location: milky way, orion arm

Re: Four Light

Post by earthling »

^When incentives are involved, that is indeed exploitation.
User avatar
beautyfromashes
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 7189
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Four Light

Post by beautyfromashes »

earthling wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:30 pm ^When incentives are involved, that is indeed exploitation.
I would assume the company is doing what they believe will provide them the most profit. I wouldn't think them to be incompetent and just forgo profits. If the incentive isn't tying the goal of the city to the result that they want, then that's a problem with the incentive structure.
Post Reply