Four Light

Come here for discussion about the new downtown entertainment district.
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DColeKC
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Re: Four Light

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beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:50 am
Cratedigger wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:25 am Cordish is the only developer building highrises downtown. Sure it's subsidized, but until another developer starts building up, I'm not going to wish for someone else to step in and manage.
Not talking about the condo towers. We were talking about the district. The condo towers will always be owned by Cordish, unless they sell them. The retail portion is managed by Cordish but built by the city.
Some wrong information here. None of PNL was built by the city with exception of the below grade infrastructure that would have been required for anything new to go in this area. All the retail properties are solely owned by Cordish.
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Re: Four Light

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beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:09 am
DColeKC wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:41 am You're joking right? You're not going to find a local development company that's going to the extents Cordish has. They've put money on the table for other downtown initiates that don't directly impact their bottom line as well.

They def haven't done anything to deter other developers from doing things downtown either.

Instead of pretending there's a conspiracy or a lack of effort to get all spaces occupied, why don't we look at the reality of the situation. Outside factors dominate the situation.

(*I'm aware this is a pro-cordish take)
CBRE does a pretty good job in Overland Park. Combine them with PB&J to develop some new concepts and P&L would still function fine. There really isn't anything Cordish has brought to the district that is a wow! tenant. Rents might be cheaper with another vendor, but they probably would do a better job filling the space up, probably with local concepts. I'm sure Cordish is a great company, and I REALLY don't want to argue that fact with you. But Kansas City is probably small potatoes for them. There are no economies of scale like other players in the market that don't just do one district and Cordish has more prominent cities they are also working.
Kansas City is their prized district and they’ve invested a billion dollars in it. It’s not on them to seek out a wow tenant but they’ve worked with local owners to literally create new concepts. Some have failed like Kill Devil Club but others like County Road Ice House was curated by Cordish. Many of the retail tenants are locally owned and operated.

They’ve recently let go of the leasing agent who handles the district, brought in a president to focus on leasing and have been working with brokers. Mythical Gaming was a broker deal. They have no motivation to keep spaces empty and all the motivation to lease everything. If I had to guess I’d say there’s 10 million dollars per year in rent they’re missing out on. That’s a serious motivator. They also don’t just demand market rate rent and are known to be highly flexible in terms that incentivize the tenant and the landlord to succeed.

The empty store fronts are a symptom of the market and with the plaza so close, no big clothing retailer is going to pick PNL over the plaza. PNL is slowly filling up with locally owned businesses and that will set them apart from the rest.

There are a handful of deals being worked right now that will be amazing locally owned tenants if they get across the finish line. Our current economic times are making this even more difficult.

Lastly, the towers would be sold far before the district as a whole is ever sold. Both situations very unlikely to happen anytime soon, if ever.
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Re: Four Light

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earthling wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:07 pm What's the latest P&L retail vacancy? Someone estimated 15% a while back, which was about the same as Plaza until recent lease announcements (from parent companies nearing bankruptcy territory). Metro vacancy is below 7% and urban core vacancies are even lower. So Cordish isn't doing something right on the retail front. They have been too selective with the retail aspect, essentially exploiting incentives.
Wrong. Or course they’re not going to share the efforts made to the public or competition. They are selective as any responsible landlord should be, especially when you’re literally curating an entire multi-city district but not to the point of detriment.

Can you tell me why a landlord would want millions of dollars of retail space to sit empty? What’s the advantage of this? Exploiting incentives? How? What good does that do them?

They could just open the flood gates and get spaces full but that would mean the overall demise of the district as a whole. Most landlords are whores and will take anything, I’m glad Cordish is playing the long game here and not strictly in this for profit.
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Re: Four Light

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earthling wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:30 pm ^When incentives are involved, that is indeed exploitation.
Kind of a bizarre take. Incentives at their core are meant to be taken advantage of. It’s literally an advantage to a developer given to them by the city.

I think what you’re trying to slander, I mean say, is that they’re not doing their part as a partner to the city. In that case, you’re just flat out wrong.

You seem to think that when incentives are given, the giver is the boss and can dictate how things work.
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Re: Four Light

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^When P&L spaces have been empty for many years while rest of downtown retail vacancy much lower (that didn't receive incentives btw), the incentives for empty spaces without trying very hard (or being too selective) well before pandemic is essentially exploiting it. Continue to spin it how you'd like in shill mode, something is intentionally off when having spaces empty that long, especially with incentives involved.
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Re: Four Light

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earthling wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:29 pm ^When P&L spaces have been empty for many years while rest of downtown retail vacancy much lower (that didn't receive incentives btw), the incentives for empty spaces without trying very hard (or being too selective) well before pandemic is essentially exploiting it. Continue to spin it how you'd like in shill mode, something is intentionally off when having spaces empty that long, especially with incentives involved.
I get from what he’s saying that they just had a terrible leasing agent and that they are making changes to fix the problem. I wish it would have happened early, but glad to hear that we should see some activity soon. Having several hundred more people living above the district should also help boost demand.
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Re: Four Light

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^He said, "Most landlords are whores and will take anything, I’m glad Cordish is playing the long game here and not strictly in this for profit."

Not a responsible comment if it's adding risks related to the city bonds.
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Re: Four Light

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It seems to me what the biggest issue is simply the Plaza. And no landlord of those stores can get around that.
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Re: Four Light

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Different situation as Plaza owners are approaching bankruptcy territory and many issues are pandemic related. Cordish hasn't filled several P&L retail spots even one time well before pandemic even though downtown retail vacancy was only around 2%.
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Re: Four Light

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earthling wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:35 pm Different situation as Plaza owners are approaching bankruptcy territory and many issues are pandemic related. Cordish hasn't filled several P&L retail spots even one time well before pandemic even though downtown retail vacancy was only around 2%.
Do we think Cordish even makes much money on retail? Maybe, it's just a requirement for residents of their towers, their true cash cow, and if they keep renting those out quickly there's no need to push harder for retail?
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Re: Four Light

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earthling wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:29 pm ^When P&L spaces have been empty for many years while rest of downtown retail vacancy much lower (that didn't receive incentives btw), the incentives for empty spaces without trying very hard (or being too selective) well before pandemic is essentially exploiting it. Continue to spin it how you'd like in shill mode, something is intentionally off when having spaces empty that long, especially with incentives involved.
You literally have zero clue to the efforts put in to get spaces leased yet you think it’s some kind of conspiracy or purposeful effort to NOT make more money. You think Cordish enjoys people constantly bringing up the tax revenue shortfalls? Don’t you think they’d love to be fully leased?

You’re showing your ass here and it’s fun to watch. It’s no secret you’re not a fan of them considering the three word phrase you love to say is “Cordish glass wall”.

It’s one thing to be critical of designs but to toss out accusations that “something is intentionally off” is dangerous and honestly stupid when you stop and think about it.

If you can explain why a landlord would purposely not lease all available space in order to take advantage of some secret deal, please do. I’m guessing you’re just being the anti-Cordish guy since I’m the pro-Cordish guy.

I don’t have to spin anything, you’re doing all the spinning here trying to imply Cordish just keeps spaces empty for fun.
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Re: Four Light

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beautyfromashes wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 6:41 pm
earthling wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:35 pm Different situation as Plaza owners are approaching bankruptcy territory and many issues are pandemic related. Cordish hasn't filled several P&L retail spots even one time well before pandemic even though downtown retail vacancy was only around 2%.
Do we think Cordish even makes much money on retail? Maybe, it's just a requirement for residents of their towers, their true cash cow, and if they keep renting those out quickly there's no need to push harder for retail?
The total amount of square footage available for lease in that district (occupied and vacant) represent 25 million dollars a year. It’s the biggest potential source of revenue they have in this city.

Residential doesn’t generate the profit you think it does. Not when you’re talking about 100+ million dollar buildings that are mostly financed.
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Re: Four Light

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earthling wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:05 pm ^He said, "Most landlords are whores and will take anything, I’m glad Cordish is playing the long game here and not strictly in this for profit."

Not a responsible comment if it's adding risks related to the city bonds.
I think the city appreciates the developer being protective of the overall district and not simply taking whatever to get the spaces filled. What a great way to ruin a massive investment.

And, as a tax paying citizen who doesn’t receive any compensation from Cordish, I think my comments are plenty responsible.
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Re: Four Light

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Can we get back to 4L or do you two want to waste time hypothesizing about PNL leasing?
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Re: Four Light

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Having followed the retail sector for 20 years (and as a CRE PE investor) am not aware of spaces never once leased out for many years despite incentives when nearby districts vacancy is essentially ideal (nearly all of these not receiving incentives). Cordish has been a great catalyst for downtown but they have also perhaps added risk related to city bonds by being unnecessarily too selective on the retail end. And yes, using essentially the same curtain wall for all residential buildings is worthy of perpetual criticism.
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Re: Four Light

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DColeKC wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 6:44 pm You literally have zero clue to the efforts put in to get spaces leased yet you think it’s some kind of conspiracy or purposeful effort to NOT make more money.
Can you help by explaining why the districts rental vacancy percentage is so much higher than the rest of DT and for so long? It'd seem that theirs would be the ideal location that everyone would want.
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Re: Four Light

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It would be amazing if they could build a cafe or nice restaurant on the ground floor facing the south loop park. I hope they consider that, and put some outdoor seating for it as well.
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Re: Four Light

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beautyfromashes wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:35 pm
DColeKC wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 6:44 pm You literally have zero clue to the efforts put in to get spaces leased yet you think it’s some kind of conspiracy or purposeful effort to NOT make more money.
Can you help by explaining why the districts rental vacancy percentage is so much higher than the rest of DT and for so long? It'd seem that theirs would be the ideal location that everyone would want.
I tried to explain best I could with what I know but bottom line is PNL is not the ideal location for the easy picking of retail options. The plan was always to grow residential both through building residential towers but more so building a neighborhood that increases downtown population. As more people live downtown the more desirable a location it is for retail. Like I said, a long game. It was far more economical to build out the shell of the district completely at once as opposed to expanding retail options as demand grows. Imagine how long it would have taken to fill up all the residential towers had they been built at once.

PNL was never intended to be a build it, open it and fill it district. It’s always been the plan that it will take time. Now how long they expected until fully leased I’m not sure but I know they’re out of patience and are getting more aggressive. Thus the use of brokers.

The fact that the district is financially stable and cash flow positive despite the empty locations should go to show it was a smart business model. Especially as you have places like the plaza almost fully leased yet about to implode.
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Re: Four Light

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earthling wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:06 pm Having followed the retail sector for 20 years (and as a CRE PE investor) am not aware of spaces never once leased out for many years despite incentives when nearby districts vacancy is essentially ideal (nearly all of these not receiving incentives). Cordish has been a great catalyst for downtown but they have also perhaps added risk related to city bonds by being unnecessarily too selective on the retail end. And yes, using essentially the same curtain wall for all residential buildings is worthy of perpetual criticism.
They’re in constant communication with the city and if the city had any concerns on how the district was being operated they’d voice those concerns publicly. No one is saying they’ve been “too” selective that’s in the loop because they’re witnessed the efforts made. It’s easy to sit here and be critical when you know nothing about the situation and only have the vacancy comps to lean on.

Good news on curtain wall is they didn’t essentially use the same material. If your complaint is the towers look too similar than carry on with your criticism of them executing that purposeful plan.
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Re: Four Light

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UMKC Roo wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:35 am It would be amazing if they could build a cafe or nice restaurant on the ground floor facing the south loop park. I hope they consider that, and put some outdoor seating for it as well.
The cap definitely makes those retail locations more desirable since they’ll have views. A 2nd floor restaurant would be great with elevated views of the park.
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