OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

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normalthings
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by normalthings »

shaffe wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:37 pm I think this design could add 7 more gates to the end of Concourse A but beyond that KCI is probably looking at a second terminal. To be fair that's an 18% increase on the current 38 gates. I'm sure once this project is done there will be another long term plan made at some point but I think a second copy of this terminal on the other side with some automated tram connectors would work pretty well. As it is runway 1R/19L is kind of a "long" taxi to get to the new terminal so a second terminal on that side could help that runway be more useful.
I think 42 or 43 was the "easy" expansion option and then 50 with a little more work. After that, I guess you could build a new terminal at B,C, or D.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by alejandro46 »

beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:50 pm
shaffe wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:37 pm I think this design could add 7 more gates to the end of Concourse A but beyond that KCI is probably looking at a second terminal. To be fair that's an 18% increase on the current 38 gates. I'm sure once this project is done there will be another long term plan made at some point but I think a second copy of this terminal on the other side with some automated tram connectors would work pretty well. As it is runway 1R/19L is kind of a "long" taxi to get to the new terminal so a second terminal on that side could help that runway be more useful.
If they have to build a whole new terminal and connect them with people movers in the next 20 years, then this design was a huge fail. Honestly, I think the best thing the new airport has going for it is how utterly terrible the last one was here at the end. The bar was set so low and it seems people are excited just because it’s not what we have currently. It looks functional but fairly mediocre.
The concourse can be expanded to 50 gates which is needed for the forsceeable future iirc. The concourse can be expanded to where Terminal B was in the future to the West. The 50 gate expansion proposal is linked in the article below. I'm not sure about a future plan beyond that, but I agree I hope they would have thought about. With the old terminals gone, if you remove the B parking garage you can build another section over there and connect with a moving sidewalk.

https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/hi ... al-designs
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by shaffe »

beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:50 pm
shaffe wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:37 pm I think this design could add 7 more gates to the end of Concourse A but beyond that KCI is probably looking at a second terminal. To be fair that's an 18% increase on the current 38 gates. I'm sure once this project is done there will be another long term plan made at some point but I think a second copy of this terminal on the other side with some automated tram connectors would work pretty well. As it is runway 1R/19L is kind of a "long" taxi to get to the new terminal so a second terminal on that side could help that runway be more useful.
If they have to build a whole new terminal and connect them with people movers in the next 20 years, then this design was a huge fail. Honestly, I think the best thing the new airport has going for it is how utterly terrible the last one was here at the end. The bar was set so low and it seems people are excited just because it’s not what we have currently. It looks functional but fairly mediocre.
I can't imagine a second terminal would happen anytime before 2055-2060. This terminal was about updating and refreshing our current loads with some growth built in. Honestly if traffic exploded to the point where a second terminal was needed before 2050 then something completely unforeseen has happened. 43-50 gates is plenty of capacity to handle more than double KCI's pre-pandemic passenger load. Midway has 43 gates. San Diego 51. Houston Hobby serves more people than KCI at only 30 gates. Etc.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

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shaffe wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:03 pm
beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:50 pm
shaffe wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:37 pm I think this design could add 7 more gates to the end of Concourse A but beyond that KCI is probably looking at a second terminal. To be fair that's an 18% increase on the current 38 gates. I'm sure once this project is done there will be another long term plan made at some point but I think a second copy of this terminal on the other side with some automated tram connectors would work pretty well. As it is runway 1R/19L is kind of a "long" taxi to get to the new terminal so a second terminal on that side could help that runway be more useful.
If they have to build a whole new terminal and connect them with people movers in the next 20 years, then this design was a huge fail. Honestly, I think the best thing the new airport has going for it is how utterly terrible the last one was here at the end. The bar was set so low and it seems people are excited just because it’s not what we have currently. It looks functional but fairly mediocre.
I can't imagine a second terminal would happen anytime before 2055-2060. This terminal was about updating and refreshing our current loads with some growth built in. Honestly if traffic exploded to the point where a second terminal was needed before 2050 then something completely unforeseen has happened. 43-50 gates is plenty of capacity to handle more than double KCI's pre-pandemic passenger load. Midway has 43 gates. San Diego 51. Houston Hobby serves more people than KCI at only 30 gates. Etc.
What are their SQFT of hold rooms and amenities per gate? I agree but there are also different space requirements for O&D vs connecting airports
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by mykem »

normalthings wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:55 pm
shaffe wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:37 pm I think this design could add 7 more gates to the end of Concourse A but beyond that KCI is probably looking at a second terminal. To be fair that's an 18% increase on the current 38 gates. I'm sure once this project is done there will be another long term plan made at some point but I think a second copy of this terminal on the other side with some automated tram connectors would work pretty well. As it is runway 1R/19L is kind of a "long" taxi to get to the new terminal so a second terminal on that side could help that runway be more useful.
I think 42 or 43 was the "easy" expansion option and then 50 with a little more work. After that, I guess you could build a new terminal at B,C, or D.
Thats what I heard. 50 gates is the max this terminal can be built out to. A second terminal would have to be constructed for any further expansion.
Houston Hobby along with DAL has more traffic but are primarily Southwest terminals. Same with Midway.
As for SAN, its on a tiny foot print with only one runway and is in the building phase of a new 30 gate Terminal one. There is no room to expand there.
I would think for MCI to expand, it would need additional airlines flying in and out.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by shinatoo »

The only way I see another terminal built is if an airline wants a hub in KC and wants their own terminal for it. I doubt that's going to happen.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by normalthings »

shinatoo wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:54 am The only way I see another terminal built is if an airline wants a hub in KC and wants their own terminal for it. I doubt that's going to happen.
An airline could have a sizable connecting operation and still not need more than 50 gates total. I think Southwest has 16 or 17 in St. Louis and 10 here
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by shinatoo »

normalthings wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:01 am
shinatoo wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:54 am The only way I see another terminal built is if an airline wants a hub in KC and wants their own terminal for it. I doubt that's going to happen.
An airline could have a sizable connecting operation and still not need more than 50 gates total. I think Southwest has 16 or 17 in St. Louis and 10 here
Yes, you could probably have a couple of airlines with mini hubs in a 50 gate airport, maybe even a primary hub. But that wasn't the question. We were talking about why you would need to build a second terminal and I think that would only happen if we were looking at a significant hub that the airline wanted a signature terminal that they control.

If that happened I would assume it would be due east in the Terminal C/D area. Something like the Delta terminal in Detroit.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by normalthings »

shinatoo wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:05 am
normalthings wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:01 am
shinatoo wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:54 am The only way I see another terminal built is if an airline wants a hub in KC and wants their own terminal for it. I doubt that's going to happen.
An airline could have a sizable connecting operation and still not need more than 50 gates total. I think Southwest has 16 or 17 in St. Louis and 10 here
Yes, you could probably have a couple of airlines with mini hubs in a 50 gate airport, maybe even a primary hub. But that wasn't the question. We were talking about why you would need to build a second terminal and I think that would only happen if we were looking at a significant hub that the airline wanted a signature terminal that they control.

If that happened I would assume it would be due east in the Terminal C/D area. Something like the Delta terminal in Detroit.
Not trying to contradict you. Just wanted to say we can still “succeed” in getting many people’s goal of a connecting operation without needing to go to a second terminal. Just shows how much expansion is really built in to this (a lot)
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by WoodDraw »

Can someone that is more intelligent than me describe how spirit, frontier, allegiant, and JetBlue would contribute to the cost of the airport if they expand?

I don't know much about how airports work, outside of the basics? If they want an extra gate, I assume they're charged a gate fee. But surely other airlines have some level of priority? I remember them being reluctant to agree initially.

I'm happy to read if there's anything academic level too.

I think this has been addressed before as well, but did they ever consider adding an attached hotel to the terminal. Would that be possible in the future?
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by WoodDraw »

As for people speculating about gates, are they their current gate numbers? It might just be to keep things normal.

No information, but Occam's razor is keep things the same if possible or close to it.

Or some faa rule until they're demolished? There are all sorts of weird shit to make sure pilots don't get confused.

🤷‍♂️
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by normalthings »

WoodDraw wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:02 pm Can someone that is more intelligent than me describe how spirit, frontier, allegiant, and JetBlue would contribute to the cost of the airport if they expand?

I don't know much about how airports work, outside of the basics? If they want an extra gate, I assume they're charged a gate fee. But surely other airlines have some level of priority? I remember them being reluctant to agree initially.

I'm happy to read if there's anything academic level too.

I think this has been addressed before as well, but did they ever consider adding an attached hotel to the terminal. Would that be possible in the future?
KCI Use and Lease agreement is a great place to start for exact details.

Leasing a gate
Renting terminal space
Landing fees
Baggage system usage fee
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by WoodDraw »

normalthings wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:55 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:02 pm Can someone that is more intelligent than me describe how spirit, frontier, allegiant, and JetBlue would contribute to the cost of the airport if they expand?

I don't know much about how airports work, outside of the basics? If they want an extra gate, I assume they're charged a gate fee. But surely other airlines have some level of priority? I remember them being reluctant to agree initially.

I'm happy to read if there's anything academic level too.

I think this has been addressed before as well, but did they ever consider adding an attached hotel to the terminal. Would that be possible in the future?
KCI Use and Lease agreement is a great place to start for exact details.

Leasing a gate
Renting terminal space
Landing fees
Baggage system usage fee
Thanks, I'll for sure google when I have some free time.

I guess my question is more how they prevent free riders. If we presume the legacy carriers + southwest are effectively paying for the terminal, is there anything to prevent a newly combined airline from coming in and saying we'll take 5 gates?

Or are they all just use fees? And the legacy just agrees ahead of time to pay it? Discounted fees?

I knowI I need to read up.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by normalthings »

WoodDraw wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:06 pm
normalthings wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:55 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:02 pm Can someone that is more intelligent than me describe how spirit, frontier, allegiant, and JetBlue would contribute to the cost of the airport if they expand?

I don't know much about how airports work, outside of the basics? If they want an extra gate, I assume they're charged a gate fee. But surely other airlines have some level of priority? I remember them being reluctant to agree initially.

I'm happy to read if there's anything academic level too.

I think this has been addressed before as well, but did they ever consider adding an attached hotel to the terminal. Would that be possible in the future?
KCI Use and Lease agreement is a great place to start for exact details.

Leasing a gate
Renting terminal space
Landing fees
Baggage system usage fee
Thanks, I'll for sure google when I have some free time.

I guess my question is more how they prevent free riders. If we presume the legacy carriers + southwest are effectively paying for the terminal, is there anything to prevent a newly combined airline from coming in and saying we'll take 5 gates?

Or are they all just use fees? And the legacy just agrees ahead of time to pay it? Discounted fees?

I knowI I need to read up.
Lease gates vs pay per turn. Airlines that don’t lease a gate pay an elevated per turn rate. If JetBlue comes in and leased just as many gates as United then they are paying for the new terminal just as much as United is (sorta)

All airlines pay to use the baggage system. Pricing favors volume (the bigger airlines).
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by WoodDraw »

normalthings wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:24 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:06 pm
normalthings wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:55 pm

KCI Use and Lease agreement is a great place to start for exact details.

Leasing a gate
Renting terminal space
Landing fees
Baggage system usage fee
Thanks, I'll for sure google when I have some free time.

I guess my question is more how they prevent free riders. If we presume the legacy carriers + southwest are effectively paying for the terminal, is there anything to prevent a newly combined airline from coming in and saying we'll take 5 gates?

Or are they all just use fees? And the legacy just agrees ahead of time to pay it? Discounted fees?

I knowI I need to read up.
Lease gates vs pay per turn. Airlines that don’t lease a gate pay an elevated per turn rate. If JetBlue comes in and leased just as many gates as United then they are paying for the new terminal just as much as United is (sorta)

All airlines pay to use the baggage system. Pricing favors volume (the bigger airlines).
thank you. that was very useful.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by SingleMalt12 »

shinatoo wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:05 am

If that happened I would assume it would be due east in the Terminal C/D area. Something like the Delta terminal in Detroit.
The thing about the McNamara Terminal at Detroit Metro, the one you call the Delta terminal, and the Evans terminal, formerly called the North terminal, is that while there are buses connecting them there should have been some thought given to trams connecting them. I doubt there is a ton of passengers needing to go between them but still, it's a pain. Also if you're picking up people from both terminals in one car you have to circle around to get from one to the other. Another pain. There are two cel phone lots and that helps but a lot of people just line up in the pickup lanes & when it's busy arrivals lanes are terrible. A lot of times I pick people up on the departures level. Less crowded and cars leave quicker. Bear that in mind with the new KCI. Picking up at departures could be a good thing.


The "Delta" terminal houses Delta and Air France. They're members of an alliance. The terminal has about 100 gates.
The other terminal houses all the others, Air Canada, Alaska, American, Frontier, JetBlue, Lufthansa, Royal Jordanian, Southwest, Spirit and United. It has 29 gates. The reason the non Delta terminal is where it is is because it's built on the property that once housed the old terminal. The Delta terminal was built on bare land between runways. Yeah it's a nice terminal and fairly efficient. The non Delta terminal is pretty bare bones. It's efficient and it is nice to have so many options when flying.

Today I was at the airport to pick someone up and I got there early to buy tickets for my wife and daughter on Spirit for a trip in September. Buying them
online would have been $176. Buying them at the airport in advance cost me $80 total. They are not checking a bag so none of the extras. Still, saving more than half is amazing. If you know how to play the Spirit game you really can save a lot. Also, Spirit does fly to a lot of destinations from Detroit.
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

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Auntie Ann and Cinnabon plans filed
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by beautyfromashes »

normalthings wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:58 pm Auntie Ann and Cinnabon plans filed
Seriously, are you joking?
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Re: OFFICIAL - New KCI Terminal

Post by trexel94 »

beautyfromashes wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:15 pm
normalthings wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:58 pm Auntie Ann and Cinnabon plans filed
Seriously, are you joking?
What's your beef? Almost all of the concessions are local brands that will likely be more expensive than conventional chains. It'll be nice to have a couple well known standbys.
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