Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

[kboish]

there has been movement behind the scenes. Various office tenants have taken a look at the site. Without a tenant, none of these office projects will happen

This is said about a dozen or two sites. And nothing happens.

[normalthings]

there has been movement behind the scenes. Various office tenants have taken a look at the site. Without a tenant, none of these office projects will happen

This is said about a dozen or two sites. And nothing happens.

maybe we should instead ask, why does every tenant pass on downtown and what can we do to change that? Its not just the Copaken land that keeps getting passed up on.

There are some reasons I've seen for local firms

1. Earnings Tax
2. Employees centered around Joco
3. Price Premium for downtown space

[AlkaliAxel]

Can we just scrap this and put up residential then? We have like every young person in KC wanting to live in the urban core and yet we keep worrying about office spots. I'm sick of hearing about "the employee is in JoCo" ok well the rapidly growing young urban people are centered in KCMO so how about we just build more residential then. Press our advantages. I can't stand this empty parcel.

[normalthings]

Can we just scrap this and put up residential then? We have like every young person in KC wanting to live in the urban core and yet we keep worrying about office spots. I'm sick of hearing about "the employee is in JoCo" ok well the rapidly growing young urban people are centered in KCMO so how about we just build more residential then. Press our advantages. I can't stand this empty parcel.

The land price would require an apartment tower to be built. Apartment towers need structured parking and projects with structured parking are not penciling for a lot of developers here right now (without incentives). Incentives now come with many requirements that reduce the NPV of the incentive to the point they don't cover the gap even if you can get approval.

[TheLastGentleman]

Then build some crap two-story buildings in that are made out of wood and spit or something! Whole sections of downtown, which could've been neighborhoods all these years, have been laying amputated for decades while owners are dicking around waiting for an international conglomerate to show up and ask patiently for a new office tower that doesn't even exist.

It can be done!



Quoting myself from here: viewtopic.php?t=21207&start=20

Red = Entire city block is gone

Orange = Surface lot or very low-rise parking garage

Yellow = Parking garages

And this is just in the loop, and I probably missed some

[AlkaliAxel]

Can we just scrap this and put up residential then? We have like every young person in KC wanting to live in the urban core and yet we keep worrying about office spots. I'm sick of hearing about "the employee is in JoCo" ok well the rapidly growing young urban people are centered in KCMO so how about we just build more residential then. Press our advantages. I can't stand this empty parcel.

The land price would require an apartment tower to be built. Apartment towers need structured parking and projects with structured parking are not penciling for a lot of developers here right now (without incentives). Incentives now come with many requirements that reduce the NPV of the incentive to the point they don't cover the gap.

Sounds to me like, once again, it's gonna come down to 1400 KC getting leased and setting off the market.

[WoodDraw]

there has been movement behind the scenes. Various office tenants have taken a look at the site. Without a tenant, none of these office projects will happen

This is said about a dozen or two sites. And nothing happens.

maybe we should instead ask, why does every tenant pass on downtown and what can we do to change that? Its not just the Copaken land that keeps getting passed up on.

There are some reasons I've seen for local firms

1. Earnings Tax
2. Employees centered around Joco
3. Price Premium for downtown space

Allowing the downtown office market to collapse will take a long time to turn around, if ever. Suburban office parks are the norm here, and people are used to them.

[normalthings]

This is said about a dozen or two sites. And nothing happens.

maybe we should instead ask, why does every tenant pass on downtown and what can we do to change that? Its not just the Copaken land that keeps getting passed up on.

There are some reasons I've seen for local firms

1. Earnings Tax
2. Employees centered around Joco
3. Price Premium for downtown space

Allowing the downtown office market to collapse will take a long time to turn around, if ever. Suburban office parks are the norm here, and people are used to them.

The border war ended when Kansas knew they might start losing. I wonder how things would be if we had allowed large office towers around the Plaza.

[FangKC]

It's amusing that people, who are horrified by incentives' use downtown, are almost always people who never go down there. They also usually have no idea how much revenue is being lost each year with all those surface lots that would provide more money to the City/County/schools/libraries even after the incentives were calculated if they were just developed. Then beneficiaries get even more when the incentives expire. There are blocks that have been sitting empty for almost 60 years. Had they been developed 60 years ago, even under the most liberal incentive packages, they would have been providing full revenues to all parties for the last 30 years.

The southeast corner of W. 6th and Broadway has been a surface lot for 100 years.

https://jchs.odyssey.historyit.com/item ... 88/gallery

https://jchs.odyssey.historyit.com/item ... 62/gallery

As far as I can tell, the NE corner of 14th and Wyandotte (east of the P&L Building) has never had anything on that lot in the past 100 years.

https://jchs.odyssey.historyit.com/item ... 96/gallery

The surface lot on the SW corner of 16th and Walnut also appears to have not had any building on it in 100 years.

https://jchs.odyssey.historyit.com/item ... 46/gallery

https://jchs.odyssey.historyit.com/item ... 32/gallery

The parcel on the NW corner of 18th and Walnut also appears to have gone 100 years without a building on it.

https://jchs.odyssey.historyit.com/item ... 34/gallery

People who complain about incentives being used in Greater Downtown don't realize that a fairly-small section of the City pays for maintenance and services for a lot of the rest of the City.



The former site of the Midland Hotel on E. 7th between Walnut and Grand has been a surface lot for 55 years.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/719+W ... 94.5814261

[TheLastGentleman]

They also usually have no idea how much revenue is being lost each year with all those surface lots that would provide more money to the City/County/schools/libraries even after the incentives were calculated if they were just developed.

This point has always sat poorly with me whenever I hear it. Why aren't surface lots being taxed more for the incredible damage they deal upon downtown? I'm just not sure why, whenever people use this point, it's like a "gatcha!" moment, instead of an admission of the sad state of affairs we're in, where property owner Joe Snot can sit on his city-block sized parking lot in the middle of downtown for 70 years and pay a whole $2 in taxes each year. That's the policy that needs to be reformed more than any other in the city

[FangKC]

I am not in disagreement with you. This often goes back to the earliest days of our republic with land rights and the ability of private parties to do with their land what they wish without much interference from the government.

It is often the argument from some that it's a land tax that would solve many of these problems since a block of surface parking would essentially be taxed at the same rate as one with several multi-story mixed-use buildings.

There are also property owners who would argue that incentivized office square footage competes unfairly with their fully-taxed office square footage.

But I do agree that tax policy for cleared lots' value doesn't do much to encourage it not to sit idle. In some respects, the land value of a surface parking lot is not unlike the tax rates for an agricultural or wooded plot. I've always wondered why there are large tracts of land well within the city limits that have never been developed when their location would lend it ideal for development. How can it sit so long undisturbed? It's likely because it's still taxed at agriculture rates and wooded parcels.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1577609 ... a=!3m1!1e3

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1644653 ... a=!3m1!1e3

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2252693 ... a=!3m1!1e3

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1877007 ... a=!3m1!1e3

[AlkaliAxel]

It's amusing that people, who are horrified by incentives' use downtown, are almost always people who never go down there.s.

That's why it's up to the council and mayor *who actually know better than the average ignorant citizen* to do the right thing and make the right moves here. Instead, they caved and screwed everyone.

[chaglang]

The City Hall thread got me curious: what's taking Copaken so long to get moving on this?

https://www.copaken-brooks.com/our-prop ... 3th-grand/

Lack of demand

So why suggest that we should turn City Hall and the Courthouse into housing if there's no demand for a totally vacant parcel on an adjacent corner?

Strongly suspect the e-tax whining is a red herring. If it weren't that, it would be the schools or the crime or the parking or the city government or the bike lanes or whatever current whine-du-jour is circulating c-suites. Some companies are NEVER moving downtown but like to pretend that it's the city's fault.

[chaglang]

They also usually have no idea how much revenue is being lost each year with all those surface lots that would provide more money to the City/County/schools/libraries even after the incentives were calculated if they were just developed.

This point has always sat poorly with me whenever I hear it. Why aren't surface lots being taxed more for the incredible damage they deal upon downtown? I'm just not sure why, whenever people use this point, it's like a "gatcha!" moment, instead of an admission of the sad state of affairs we're in, where property owner Joe Snot can sit on his city-block sized parking lot in the middle of downtown for 70 years and pay a whole $2 in taxes each year. That's the policy that needs to be reformed more than any other in the city

Land tax!

[dukuboy1]

Can we just scrap this and put up residential then? We have like every young person in KC wanting to live in the urban core and yet we keep worrying about office spots. I'm sick of hearing about "the employee is in JoCo" ok well the rapidly growing young urban people are centered in KCMO so how about we just build more residential then. Press our advantages. I can't stand this empty parcel.

Then you have a bunch of ppl living downtown who work in the suburbs. I don't care how young and cool it is eventually you are going to want to live closer to where you work because you get sick an tired of the commute etc. Sure ppl do it now but when you buy a house and put down roots it changes the game.

Downtown really needs to get more businesses in it so residential can compliment it and vice versa. Not sure what can be done but leadership stepping up and going and getting business, being aggressive and not caring that it may piss off another segment because you are giving some incentives and such. Current city hall needs to get back into a more pro-development and pro-business standpoint.

Earnings tax was mentioned as an issue but you pay it whether you work in KCMO or live in KCMO. SO if young people are flocking to the urban core and want to live there they are still paying earnings tax. As a business I guess you get hit as a business and not just on employees. But if you give them something for those taxes it's win.

[AlkaliAxel]

I don't care how young and cool it is eventually you are going to want to live closer to where you work

Then build more for more young people moving in instead of assuming the worst

[beautyfromashes]

I don't care how young and cool it is eventually you are going to want to live closer to where you work...

Or, you want to work closer to where you live, which is how Johnson County became Johnson County. Build housing, the jobs will follow.

[normalthings]

The City Hall thread got me curious: what's taking Copaken so long to get moving on this?

https://www.copaken-brooks.com/our-prop ... 3th-grand/

Lack of demand

So why suggest that we should turn City Hall and the Courthouse into housing if there's no demand for a totally vacant parcel on an adjacent corner?

Because that comment was about an office tower and not residential? If a pre-restrictions incentive package existed and Copaken approved of res over office, I am certain you could make an apartment tower work on 13th & grand.

Anyways in the current environment.......

1. Historic renovation projects do not fall under the affordable housing incentive requirement. So you could get incentives for a 100% market-rate conversion.
2. OR! KCMO is going to have to invest funds to create the ultra-affordable housing they want. I think they allocated $15 million per year so far. Provide tax incentives, lower cost to acquire, and maybe a direct investment to renovate with a good amount of those ultra-affordable units they desire.

[FangKC]

If that is the case, shouldn't historic buildings currently being repurposed as hotels instead be repurposed as housing, and instead, additional added hotel rooms downtown come from new construction? To take advantage of that exemption?

There are several buildings undergoing these types of conversions that (in my mind) would probably be better converted to residential at this point: former Federal Reserve Bank (I'd add the Grand Avenue Temple office building to this project), Ozark Building, Scarritt Building, Palace Clothing Co. building, and maybe even the Aladdin Hotel.

[shinatoo]

We have to keep building what is selling downtown. If that's residential right now, then we build residential. We're not going to save downtown hoping for commercial. When commercial comes we will still have plenty of room for it. We have an abundance of space, as long as it's urban, build it.