KCRag Forum

Posted: **Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:55 pm**

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:52 pm
normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:48 pm
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:46 pm

So you’re saying we should just go off the study that got community feedback, ranked the corridors, and even outlined cost for all of them? Pft, that’s way too easy, we are here to overcomplicate this
Transit along i70 and trains on Truman have been covered in previous studies
And that landed... where?

exactly, we have studies that identify why the 2 are not top choices

Posted: **Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:06 pm**

That's cool but I'm thinking Truman has a blank slate worth working with. By the time a project like this would likely be designed, funded, and approved the E-W connectors in the 30's and on the Ave will likely already be operating. Its clearly a potential high growth corridor that connects DTKC with the Eastside, by 2031 it will likely be less than half a mile from a new Royals stadium. If there's a huge need for affordable housing in a walkable transit friendly environment connected to jobs this is one of the places to start building it.

Posted: **Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:08 pm**

daGOAT wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:06 pm That's cool but I'm thinking Truman has a blank slate worth working with. By the time a project like this would likely be designed, funded, and approved the E-W connectors in the 30's and on the Ave will likely already be operating. Its clearly a potential high growth corridor that connects DTKC with the Eastside, by 2031 it will likely be less than half a mile from a new Royals stadium. If there's a huge need for affordable housing in a walkable transit friendly environment connected to jobs this is one of the places to start building it.

You will struggle to find ROW alongside i70 to the stadium (an issue mentioned in one of the studies)

Posted: **Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:15 pm**

Well even if its a pipe dream I'm still fascinated by the potential there. I actually graduated from Manual Tech and always felt the street was under utilized. 7 years later and the city is starting to have momentum and I'm inclined to believe it will continue. In the meantime I guess the most important thing would be building housing and creating demand.

Posted: **Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:21 pm**

daGOAT wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:15 pm Well even if its a pipe dream I'm still fascinated by the potential there. I actually graduated from Manual Tech and always felt the street was under utilized. 7 years later and the city is starting to have momentum and I'm inclined to believe it will continue. In the meantime I guess the most important thing would be building housing and creating demand.

Definitely. Truman needs a complete streets rehabiliation. If a new ballpark were to be built near there or even if not, we would want much wider sidewalks and pedestrian areas along Truman and 18th st, as they are massively overbuilt for the traffic they get. Along with better insulation from I70.

Posted: **Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:25 pm**

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:43 pm You can't just pick a street because it has space -- in KC they ALL have space. The corridor has to have trip generators now -- residents and jobs, preferably plenty of both. Hardly any of the leading candidates have changed and they're mostly represented by existing transit service today. Start there, just like NextRail did. Hell, they even ranked the corridors for you.

I'm looking through this right now. I see that the Country Club ROW received low scores for transit-supportive land use policies and potential for transit-induced development. But like... wouldn't that land be rezoned if it were received a major transit investment? Seems kinda silly not to account for that when ranking the corridors. It seems like such a waste to build the streetcar right out to where it finally has access to dedicated ROW and then just give up. With rail transit and proper zoning it's hard for me to believe that you wouldn't see a lot of new development there.

I also see that they only analyzed that alignment out to 85th and Prospect. Is there any possibility that extending it to the Cerner campus would boost the score? Or is there just too much of a dead zone there to make it cost-efficient?

Posted: **Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:47 pm**

Can you imagine the NIMBY shit storm that would accompany an attempt to rezone the land along the county club ROW?

Posted: **Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:48 pm**

CorneliusFB wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:47 pm Can you imagine the NIMBY shit storm that would accompany an attempt to rezone the land along the county club ROW?

I think Waldo and south was supportive of redevelopment in the previous study

Posted: **Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:00 pm**

A Truman Road rail line is a long-term project. It does mean the other alignments would have less priority, or should not come first.

Truman Road does need a long-term plan though. An early step could simply be a complete streets makeover and adding street trees. Some of the older retail buildings could be redeveloped using smaller TIF. Especially those around Prospect. This has often been the complaint. That TIF isn't used enough for smaller-scale renovations of buildings east of Troost.

Streetcars and LRT have always been touted as development tools and not just transit. Truman Road is certainly in need of redevelopment. It's a very under-utilized corridor.

Posted: **Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:07 pm**

I also see that the study estimated lower construction costs for the CC ROW, but only because it proposes single-tracking and not because it's inherently cheaper. But isn't it cheaper to build on empty land than in a street? I've always thought that was the case but I don't know where to find hard data on it.

Posted: **Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:11 pm**

CorneliusFB wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:47 pm Can you imagine the NIMBY shit storm that would accompany an attempt to rezone the land along the county club ROW?

It would have to be targeted pretty selectively. But you wouldn't need to upzone everything in sight in order to get a good amount of new development.

Posted: **Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:43 pm**

normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:48 pm
CorneliusFB wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:47 pm Can you imagine the NIMBY shit storm that would accompany an attempt to rezone the land along the county club ROW?
I think Waldo and south was supportive of redevelopment in the previous study

Here's what it says:

"The Corridor is characterized by a range of support where support increases as one goes further south. The northern most neighborhoods, many of which have existing development pressure from the Country Club Plaza, see limited value and a high cost for a streetcar expansion. Moving to Brookside, there is no opposition, but real concern about a streetcar’s impact on businesses and their parking supply. Farther south in Waldo and Marlborough, there is strong support for a streetcar to not only connect them to Downtown, but to transform the neighborhoods and attract new development and reinvestment."

Posted: **Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:55 pm**

I've now gotten to the part of the report where it says that the scores for development potential do not take into account the likelihood that any development will actually take place. Eh.

Posted: **Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:06 pm**

daGOAT wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:06 pm That's cool but I'm thinking Truman has a blank slate worth working with. By the time a project like this would likely be designed, funded, and approved the E-W connectors in the 30's and on the Ave will likely already be operating. Its clearly a potential high growth corridor that connects DTKC with the Eastside, by 2031 it will likely be less than half a mile from a new Royals stadium. If there's a huge need for affordable housing in a walkable transit friendly environment connected to jobs this is one of the places to start building it.

I’m with you on this exactly. We’re looking for a new public project anyway since the airport & streetcar are winding down. I think it needs to be either this or the north loop removal.

Posted: **Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:22 am**

Truman, Lindood, whereever, the point still stands that we can't fund another extension via CID/TIF vote, even if there were enough density in these areas. Correct me if I am wrong but we would need a citywide vote if the City of KC were to get involved at all. Potentially Jackson County could lead and have vote just within county borders to fund east side to Rock Island center-running dedicated lane streetcar project. It's notable that residents in Jackson are already facing significantly higher property taxes due to the undervaluing by the county in past years.

However, instead of focusing on just Jackson County, which could only fund a limited rail network and already pays the most into the ATA, I would say put it to a regional vote of an expansion of the existing 3/8 transit tax that KC MO already pays, but make it region wide.

Posted: **Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:57 pm**

alejandro46 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:22 am Truman, Lindood, whereever, the point still stands that we can't fund another extension via CID/TIF vote, even if there were enough density in these areas. Correct me if I am wrong but we would need a citywide vote if the City of KC were to get involved at all. Potentially Jackson County could lead and have vote just within county borders to fund east side to Rock Island center-running dedicated lane streetcar project. It's notable that residents in Jackson are already facing significantly higher property taxes due to the undervaluing by the county in past years.

However, instead of focusing on just Jackson County, which could only fund a limited rail network and already pays the most into the ATA, I would say put it to a regional vote of an expansion of the existing 3/8 transit tax that KC MO already pays, but make it region wide.

This, right here. All of this. Right here

It could fund a frequent and functional bus transit system, and potentially fund more regional rail.

I get people want more rail transit, but I don't see the point if it doesn't have a strong transit system connecting it.

Posted: **Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:20 pm**

I honestly think a citywide for some small tax to fund one line would probably pass fairly easily

Posted: **Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:05 pm**

alejandro46 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:22 am Truman, Lindood, whereever, the point still stands that we can't fund another extension via CID/TIF vote, even if there were enough density in these areas. Correct me if I am wrong but we would need a citywide vote if the City of KC were to get involved at all. Potentially Jackson County could lead and have vote just within county borders to fund east side to Rock Island center-running dedicated lane streetcar project. It's notable that residents in Jackson are already facing significantly higher property taxes due to the undervaluing by the county in past years.

However, instead of focusing on just Jackson County, which could only fund a limited rail network and already pays the most into the ATA, I would say put it to a regional vote of an expansion of the existing 3/8 transit tax that KC MO already pays, but make it region wide.

Yes, but if you did this, they wouldn't fold the existing extension funding mechanisms into it. They would say that those neighborhoods (DT and Midtown) voted a tax on themselves that they should still pay. So, why should I vote for any transportation expansion?? I don't need to go to Lee's Summit on the bus. I don't need to go to the Northland or OP. Without expiring the current streetcar funding and paying for it with the 3/8 extension, I'm a strong NO.

Posted: **Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:33 am**

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:05 pm
alejandro46 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:22 am Truman, Lindood, whereever, the point still stands that we can't fund another extension via CID/TIF vote, even if there were enough density in these areas. Correct me if I am wrong but we would need a citywide vote if the City of KC were to get involved at all. Potentially Jackson County could lead and have vote just within county borders to fund east side to Rock Island center-running dedicated lane streetcar project. It's notable that residents in Jackson are already facing significantly higher property taxes due to the undervaluing by the county in past years.

However, instead of focusing on just Jackson County, which could only fund a limited rail network and already pays the most into the ATA, I would say put it to a regional vote of an expansion of the existing 3/8 transit tax that KC MO already pays, but make it region wide.
Yes, but if you did this, they wouldn't fold the existing extension funding mechanisms into it. They would say that those neighborhoods (DT and Midtown) voted a tax on themselves that they should still pay. So, why should I vote for any transportation expansion?? I don't need to go to Lee's Summit on the bus. I don't need to go to the Northland or OP. Without expiring the current streetcar funding and paying for it with the 3/8 extension, I'm a strong NO.

You're skipping 5 steps ahead, those are minor technical questions that I don't think would be that difficult to figure out. Either authorize property tax assessments along all existing and future rail & max lines with a regionwide sales tax, some kind of credit system for the existing TDD owners, lower the tax burden for the TDD & spread it across the metro, etc. etc. I trust they have thought of this already and that people much smarter than me can get that worked out.

Posted: **Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:30 pm**

alejandro46 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:33 am You're skipping 5 steps ahead, those are minor technical questions that I don't think would be that difficult to figure out. Either authorize property tax assessments along all existing and future rail & max lines with a regionwide sales tax, some kind of credit system for the existing TDD owners, lower the tax burden for the TDD & spread it across the metro, etc. etc. I trust they have thought of this already and that people much smarter than me can get that worked out.

I’ve never seen a tax in this town removed and I’m not even sure how it would happen in this case with federal dollars involved. They’ll try to sell it as “you’re getting a larger transportation benefit for your increased taxes. The TDD you voted for just covered your extension.” Well, I don’t get any benefit from a larger system. This is step #1 for me, either the Streetcar TDDs are eliminated for the new tax or it’s a hard no from me.

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