Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Transportation topics in KC

What route should the third phase of streetcar expansion follow?

Linwood: Main to Michigan(71 Highway)
11
10%
Country Club ROW: UMKC to Brookside/Waldo
24
22%
Country Club ROW: UMKC through Brookside/Waldo to Prospect
14
13%
Linwood: Main to Emanuel Cleaver 2
13
12%
City/County Wide Rail Project
40
36%
Other
9
8%
 
Total votes: 111

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normalthings
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

beautyfromashes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:30 pm
alejandro46 wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:33 am You're skipping 5 steps ahead, those are minor technical questions that I don't think would be that difficult to figure out. Either authorize property tax assessments along all existing and future rail & max lines with a regionwide sales tax, some kind of credit system for the existing TDD owners, lower the tax burden for the TDD & spread it across the metro, etc. etc. I trust they have thought of this already and that people much smarter than me can get that worked out.
I’ve never seen a tax in this town removed and I’m not even sure how it would happen in this case with federal dollars involved. They’ll try to sell it as “you’re getting a larger transportation benefit for your increased taxes. The TDD you voted for just covered your extension.” Well, I don’t get any benefit from a larger system. This is step #1 for me, either the Streetcar TDDs are eliminated for the new tax or it’s a hard no from me.
Streetcar TDD 1 tax will or was drawn down to 0 once TDD 2 was turned on.

Removing TDD 2 once a regional tax passes could easily be seen as "Downtown streetcar attempts to get suburbs to once again subsidize downtown".
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by beautyfromashes »

normalthings wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:55 pm Removing TDD 2 once a regional tax passes could easily be seen as "Downtown streetcar attempts to get suburbs to once again subsidize downtown".
This is my concern. Tell my how I benefit from a new tax for a regional system that I'm paying for twice?
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

Past precedent had the sales tax being bought down if there was a Jackson County vote for a new transit sales tax. Start there first.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

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beautyfromashes wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:53 pm
normalthings wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:55 pm Removing TDD 2 once a regional tax passes could easily be seen as "Downtown streetcar attempts to get suburbs to once again subsidize downtown".
This is my concern. Tell my how I benefit from a new tax for a regional system that I'm paying for twice?
If a regional tax replaces the KCMO tax, you wouldn't be paying more
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 »

See below
One RideKC: Regional Transit And Funding Plan Kansas City Area Transportation Authority
#OneRideKC
Financial Task Force, June 3, 2021
https://ridekc.org/assets/uploads/docum ... 060321.pdf
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by beautyfromashes »

DaveKCMO wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:39 am Past precedent had the sales tax being bought down if there was a Jackson County vote for a new transit sales tax. Start there first.
I just don't really see this happening. Northland councilpeople have said "not one penny will go to paying for the streetcar". Like normalthings said, suburbanites won't want to be paying for the streetcar already built. I think eliminating the existing streetcar tax and replacing it with an extended regional 3/8 transportation extension is an impossibility. Suburbanites flatly reject that outright. Regional funding of a larger system sounds great; I just don't see how it's a reality politically.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 »

beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:01 pm
DaveKCMO wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:39 am Past precedent had the sales tax being bought down if there was a Jackson County vote for a new transit sales tax. Start there first.
I just don't really see this happening. Northland councilpeople have said "not one penny will go to paying for the streetcar". Like normalthings said, suburbanites won't want to be paying for the streetcar already built. I think eliminating the existing streetcar tax and replacing it with an extended regional 3/8 transportation extension is an impossibility. Suburbanites flatly reject that outright. Regional funding of a larger system sounds great; I just don't see how it's a reality politically.
What's your plan then? I see it as honestly the only political reality and the inevitable option. OneRide is already laying the foundation of regional transit funding. The political reality is that future expansion isn't possible via the traditional ways.

I've highlighted how a regional vote should work, if a county didn't want transit, it wouldn't vote for it and wouldn't be included. Also, the Northland Councilpeople Shields and Loar except Dan Fowler are complete garbage. KCMO only vote required for future expansion, but hard to get Northland onboard if you were going to invest a lot in Rail in urban core without giving Northland a fair allocaiton.

A Jackson County only plan might work, but be limited in scope, have NO KC MO involvement, and furhter burden already heavily taxed Jackson County residents. My hot take that a lot of people disagree with is that people in the suburbs actually *want* streetcar service, and the associated development, and that would get them to vote for a plan versus a bus/BRT only plan, which is fair to disagree with just because it's my opinon.

Its a hard problem, and I welcome your opinion and input. Any vote is going to be difficult to convince people to support new taxes and transit especially in our car dependent city.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

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Shields is core, you mean hall
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

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alejandro46 wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:32 pm
beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:01 pm
DaveKCMO wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:39 am Past precedent had the sales tax being bought down if there was a Jackson County vote for a new transit sales tax. Start there first.
I just don't really see this happening. Northland councilpeople have said "not one penny will go to paying for the streetcar". Like normalthings said, suburbanites won't want to be paying for the streetcar already built. I think eliminating the existing streetcar tax and replacing it with an extended regional 3/8 transportation extension is an impossibility. Suburbanites flatly reject that outright. Regional funding of a larger system sounds great; I just don't see how it's a reality politically.
What's your plan then? I see it as honestly the only political reality and the inevitable option. OneRide is already laying the foundation of regional transit funding. The political reality is that future expansion isn't possible via the traditional ways.

I've highlighted how a regional vote should work, if a county didn't want transit, it wouldn't vote for it and wouldn't be included. Also, the Northland Councilpeople Shields and Loar except Dan Fowler are complete garbage. KCMO only vote required for future expansion, but hard to get Northland onboard if you were going to invest a lot in Rail in urban core without giving Northland a fair allocaiton.

A Jackson County only plan might work, but be limited in scope, have NO KC MO involvement, and furhter burden already heavily taxed Jackson County residents. My hot take that a lot of people disagree with is that people in the suburbs actually *want* streetcar service, and the associated development, and that would get them to vote for a plan versus a bus/BRT only plan, which is fair to disagree with just because it's my opinon.

Its a hard problem, and I welcome your opinion and input. Any vote is going to be difficult to convince people to support new taxes and transit especially in our car dependent city.
KCMO transit sales tax is allowed to expire and replaced by county wide taxes. Streetcar TDD stays in place. Effectively no change in tax burden within KCMO.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

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normalthings wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:50 pm KCMO transit sales tax is allowed to expire and replaced by county wide taxes. Streetcar TDD stays in place. Effectively no change in tax burden within KCMO.
Surprised you would push such a falsity. You're extending my tax burden for many, many years past its expiration. That is absolutely a change in tax burden all while requiring me to continue paying directly (double+) for the transportation that serves my part of the city.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

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beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:14 pm
normalthings wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:50 pm KCMO transit sales tax is allowed to expire and replaced by county wide taxes. Streetcar TDD stays in place. Effectively no change in tax burden within KCMO.
Surprised you would push such a falsity. You're extending my tax burden for many, many years past its expiration. That is absolutely a change in tax burden all while requiring me to continue paying directly (double+) for the transportation that serves my part of the city.
Maybe I am just not understanding the rest of the discussion right?

As I see it:

The current KCMO transit taxes are semi-permanent (very low chance of non-renewal). You replace these with county-based taxes of an equivalent rate. How does this change things?

Today: TDD, KCMO KCATA sales tax, and a KCMO transport infrastructure sales tax
Tomorrow: TDD, County Sales Tax
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

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normalthings wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:44 pm Maybe I am just not understanding the rest of the discussion right?

As I see it:

The current KCMO transit taxes are semi-permanent (very low chance of non-renewal). You replace these with county-based taxes of an equivalent rate. How does this change things?

Today: TDD, KCMO KCATA sales tax, and a KCMO transport infrastructure sales tax
Tomorrow: TDD, County Sales Tax
Does the new county tax include rail transit? If so, people outside the current streetcar TDD would be paying less for the same benefit while people in DT and Midtown would be paying extra. Why are we charging urban core households more for the same transportation?
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 »

beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:45 pm
normalthings wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:44 pm Maybe I am just not understanding the rest of the discussion right?

As I see it:

The current KCMO transit taxes are semi-permanent (very low chance of non-renewal). You replace these with county-based taxes of an equivalent rate. How does this change things?

Today: TDD, KCMO KCATA sales tax, and a KCMO transport infrastructure sales tax
Tomorrow: TDD, County Sales Tax
Does the new county tax include rail transit? If so, people outside the current streetcar TDD would be paying less for the same benefit while people in DT and Midtown would be paying extra. Why are we charging urban core households more for the same transportation?
Sounds like you should go to some of the OneRide KC Meetings and ask them what they think.

I already mentioned a few ways to make a potential tax more fair to people in the Urban Core - I also used to live in West Plaza and voted for the TDD. If you expand a TDD to the specific areas along rail lines to pay for operation fees and have the whole County Sales Tax help with local match of bus/rail capital construction costs. That way, the people who live closes to the rail and get the most benefit also pay a bit more for it as well plus we would already have the funding available prior to the denser development that we hope occurs along high frequency transit lines.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

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I flatly reject the idea that public transportation should be paid for (or more paid for) by those who are closer to it. We have to stop thinking of roads and highways as “true transportation” and buses and rail as “a development tool”.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 11:20 pm I flatly reject the idea that public transportation should be paid for (or more paid for) by those who are closer to it. We have to stop thinking of roads and highways as “true transportation” and buses and rail as “a development tool”.
That concept is only used when there's a significant capital investment.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

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DaveKCMO wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:26 am
beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 11:20 pm I flatly reject the idea that public transportation should be paid for (or more paid for) by those who are closer to it. We have to stop thinking of roads and highways as “true transportation” and buses and rail as “a development tool”.
That concept is only used when there's a significant capital investment.
Will or will no rail be part of a transportation expansion funded by a 3/8 tax extension?
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

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beautyfromashes wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:20 am
DaveKCMO wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:26 am
beautyfromashes wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 11:20 pm I flatly reject the idea that public transportation should be paid for (or more paid for) by those who are closer to it. We have to stop thinking of roads and highways as “true transportation” and buses and rail as “a development tool”.
That concept is only used when there's a significant capital investment.
Will or will no rail be part of a transportation expansion funded by a 3/8 tax extension?
No rail. It currently covers bus service and the feds don't allow you to redirect. There isn't enough capacity there to build any new rail, so you're pretty much left with sustaining existing bus operations in KCMO.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

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DaveKCMO wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am
beautyfromashes wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:20 am
DaveKCMO wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:26 am

That concept is only used when there's a significant capital investment.
Will or will no rail be part of a transportation expansion funded by a 3/8 tax extension?
No rail. It currently covers bus service and the feds don't allow you to redirect. There isn't enough capacity there to build any new rail, so you're pretty much left with sustaining existing bus operations in KCMO.
Is the OneRide team studying increasing the tax or alternate ways to fund more rail lines?
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

alejandro46 wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:23 pm
DaveKCMO wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am
beautyfromashes wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:20 am
Will or will no rail be part of a transportation expansion funded by a 3/8 tax extension?
No rail. It currently covers bus service and the feds don't allow you to redirect. There isn't enough capacity there to build any new rail, so you're pretty much left with sustaining existing bus operations in KCMO.
Is the OneRide team studying increasing the tax or alternate ways to fund more rail lines?
I understood it to be

Renewing the existing tax just keeps things the same
Expanding transit tax to cover the broader region may include rail or BRT capital projects
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 »

normalthings wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:53 pm
alejandro46 wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:23 pm
DaveKCMO wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:45 am

No rail. It currently covers bus service and the feds don't allow you to redirect. There isn't enough capacity there to build any new rail, so you're pretty much left with sustaining existing bus operations in KCMO.
Is the OneRide team studying increasing the tax or alternate ways to fund more rail lines?
I understood it to be

Renewing the existing tax just keeps things the same
Expanding transit tax to cover the broader region may include rail or BRT capital projects
I thought so too - or at least it was in the cards. I mean in the focus group/planning material they are talking about streetcar lines seriously.
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