Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Transportation topics in KC

What route should the third phase of streetcar expansion follow?

Linwood: Main to Michigan(71 Highway)
11
10%
Country Club ROW: UMKC to Brookside/Waldo
24
22%
Country Club ROW: UMKC through Brookside/Waldo to Prospect
14
13%
Linwood: Main to Emanuel Cleaver 2
13
12%
City/County Wide Rail Project
40
36%
Other
9
8%
 
Total votes: 111

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DaveKCMO
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

alejandro46 wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:23 pmIs the OneRide team studying increasing the tax or alternate ways to fund more rail lines?
The draft has east/west and north streetcar lines that just started studies.
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normalthings
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by normalthings »

DaveKCMO wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:45 am
alejandro46 wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:23 pmIs the OneRide team studying increasing the tax or alternate ways to fund more rail lines?
The draft has east/west and north streetcar lines that just started studies.
great to hear. wish it also had south but this is a good start
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by AlkaliAxel »

I think this has been mentioned before, since the Northland suburbs seemed destined to become another JoCo like area with its growth, BUT it’s also nascent…if we get streetcar up there early enough through the north route then we may be able to shape it’s mold around rail. It will grow up knowing rail and not being opposed or scared of it.

Get the streetcar into the northland like tree roots and it will not do as awful things as JoCo. And the county will grow into 600k population like JoCo but tethered to rail.

Do the suburb like this and it will grow superior to JoCo one day.
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DaveKCMO
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

Beyond east/west and north, the only streetcar discussion that has actual proponents is something along 75th Street. Of course, that would operate in isolation from the KCMO-owned lines and I don't think anyone is really prepared for what it would take to fund and operate. This corridor is on SmartMoves as fast & frequent, but it doesn't have enough ridership or transit-supportive land use to qualify for federal funding as rail. It's even a stretch for BRT in that regard. Thus it would need to be locally funded.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by daGOAT »

75th would be a little random without another southern extension along the Trolley Track Trail. I guess it would connect to Main MAX is that route going North of the Plaza at all once the streetcar officially opens?
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by AlkaliAxel »

There’s no Northland plans once you go across that bridge….?

If that’s actually true then literally just stop the north line. There’s zero point of wasting energy on going across the bridge if there’s no future going into the Northland.
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alejandro46
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 »

Agreed, 75th street seems kind of out of left field. Sounds like somebody with power wants it but first I've ever read about it, never seen it reported on. I saw some Overland Park city council people mention Metcalf to like 79th, but just on Twitter and obviously no studies or serious proposals have been made or it would have made much bigger news.

North Kansas City government is building a lot of new housing along with a strong bar and restaurant area downtown. They want to run streetcar to connect them to downtown. Dave is just saying that the study is only focused on running to NKC (up to Armour Rd or 34th street). Not that there's never any future running further north just that theres not funding or density for it now. Crossing the HOA is going to be a financial challenge to begin with and you've got to get NKC to vote on it probably too.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:31 pm There’s no Northland plans once you go across that bridge….?

If that’s actually true then literally just stop the north line. There’s zero point of wasting energy on going across the bridge if there’s no future going into the Northland.
I didn't say there's no future, just that the current Northland power structure isn't asking for it like those around 75th Street/OP. Those structures change, just like those in NKC did.

The biggest challenge to going north is crossing the river. Just like the biggest challenge to doing rail at all was the starter line.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by WoodDraw »

I think this is small bubble bias, but I fear that people have gotten too obsessed with streetcar in KC.

We don't have the density to do this.
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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by TheLastGentleman »

Can we run more lines within downtown itself? Seems like a little line over to like quality hill for instance would make sense. The old streetcar system covered downtown pretty thoroughly
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

WoodDraw wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:11 am I think this is small bubble bias, but I fear that people have gotten too obsessed with streetcar in KC.

We don't have the density to do this.
Honestly the density of KC yields itself better to streetcar than other forms of LRT, plus dense developments accompany streetcar lines
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FangKC
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by FangKC »

TheLastGentleman wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:25 am Can we run more lines within downtown itself? Seems like a little line over to like quality hill for instance would make sense. The old streetcar system covered downtown pretty thoroughly
Run a line along 12th Street from Jefferson east to Paseo West, jog north to 9th, eastward to Woodland, and then north to Kansas City University. There's a lot of parcels to redevelop along that corridor.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by daGOAT »

I still think a Southwest Blvd line that takes 18th to Prospect, or closer, would be cool.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by SilentSpades24 »

WoodDraw wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:11 am I think this is small bubble bias, but I fear that people have gotten too obsessed with streetcar in KC.

We don't have the density to do this.
The core of this city was built along streetcar lines as streetcar suburbs.

It's not the fact we don't have density. Its the fact that many major activity centers are in JoCo or the Northland, and thst those places lack the density needed for streetcar.

It's also the fact that regionally our transit system still isn't efficient and lacks service and the places that lack the service, aren't interested in funding expanded service that.
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by AlkaliAxel »

WoodDraw wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:11 am I think this is small bubble bias, but I fear that people have gotten too obsessed with streetcar in KC.

We don't have the density to do this.
Nah
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by AlkaliAxel »

Objectively, the streetcar is great. Especially with what we’re trying to do in the urban core.

And also objectively, and larger scale rail that would go to the suburbs and suck I think would be nowhere as efficient and used, and probably not as good of an idea as the streetcar has been for the core.
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alejandro46
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 »

We should build the streetcar to areas that can add dense development, including in the suburbs. Linwood/RockIsland, Burlington/North Oak, etc. "We don't have density," so let's keep building SFH out in Kearney, Lenexa, etc. We can build suburbs right while also having streetcars and BRT in strategic routes throughout the urban core. Regional funding is the key but that means that we need to invest in transit throughout the region. We don't need heavy commuter rail, just a right-sized Streetcar on dedicated center running lines.
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by AlkaliAxel »

Exactly. Don’t say we can’t build a streetcar because of suburban density and then whine about suburban sprawl and JoCo in the next sentence.

It’ll take a hit for a little while I’m sure to do a suburban streetcar but the long term fixing our suburbs would be worth it.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by earthling »

I'm pretty sure there'd be no Federal aid if not enough existing density, that is I don't think they provide funding for speculative future density. A balanced approach is to do BRT/MAX where it makes sense with same level boarding stops as streetcar and then upgrade to streetcar in future if/when density justifies it.

And we can't compare to original streetcar system as the operational costs are now far higher relative to ridership.
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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by TheLastGentleman »

earthling wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:48 pmAnd we can't compare to original streetcar system as the operational costs are now far higher relative to ridership.
I understand that. I'm just saying that it would be good to build the system up more in downtown, especially before flinging it out into the burbs. A lot of rail systems get more dense as they drive deeper into the core, not sure why KC should be any different. Downtown KC isn't a huge area, but it's big enough that if you're living on the edge of the loop or crossroads, the streetcar isn't really doing much for you
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