Downtown New Residential Units

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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DaveKCMO wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 7:50 pm
earthling wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:43 am Any guesses on next Class B/C office building to go residential?
Oak Tower!
Any news on this?
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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TheLastGentleman wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 8:18 pm
DaveKCMO wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 7:50 pm
earthling wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:43 am Any guesses on next Class B/C office building to go residential?
Oak Tower!
Any news on this?
Not to my knowledge, just the new owner and them taking a look at daylighting the historic facade. Sounds like a tax credit / conversion move to me, but nothing has been reported.
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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I saw that article back in December. Super exciting, but I was just wondering if there had been any updates since then. After learning about that place for years now I’m anxious to see a renovation happen
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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^No mention on target number of units for Oak Tower unless I missed it. Maybe 150-200 units?
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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This KC tenants group seems to lack even a basic understanding. How do customers form a union to tell the business owners how to operate? Has anyone taught them what capitalism is? Has anyone taught them there’s no money to be made in affordable housing construction?

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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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DColeKC wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 7:57 am This KC tenants group seems to lack even a basic understanding. How do customers form a union to tell the business owners how to operate? Has anyone taught them what capitalism is? Has anyone taught them there’s no money to be made in affordable housing construction?

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How...? Well if they get organized effectively across all of MAC's buildings with a high enough level of participation and then call for a rent strike or something. It would be hard to pull off but it could be done.

Has anyone taught them...? I'm sure they know that in the perfect Chicago School wet dream their humanity would be completely subjugated to market logic.
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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DColeKC wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 7:57 am Has anyone taught them what capitalism is?

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Curious, when did capitalism involve tax subsidies. Tax subsidies is the opposite of capitalism.
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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Since the beginning of time?

Tax subsidies aren't anti-capitalism but that's not event the point. These groups don't seem to want to accept reality. What landlord can afford to build $500/month apartments? Even on a micro-level? Of course, if a landlord DID build apartments they could rent for $500-$700 a month, the tenants would than say they're not nice enough, too small and lack amenities.

Same people want fast food workers to be paid $20/hr but don't want the price of the food to go up.
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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DColeKC wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 9:29 am Since the beginning of time?

Tax subsidies aren't anti-capitalism but that's not event the point. These groups don't seem to want to accept reality. What landlord can afford to build $500/month apartments? Even on a micro-level? Of course, if a landlord DID build apartments they could rent for $500-$700 a month, the tenants would than say they're not nice enough, too small and lack amenities.

Same people want fast food workers to be paid $20/hr but don't want the price of the food to go up.
Since the beginning of what time? Tax subsidies gives one an advantage over another, government choosing one over the other. That is the opposite of what capitalism is, the market decides, not the government.
Otherwise you are making big assumptions on a certain group of people. Try taking a walk in their shoes and see what you experience.
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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aknowledgeableperson wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:23 pm
DColeKC wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 9:29 am Since the beginning of time?

Tax subsidies aren't anti-capitalism but that's not event the point. These groups don't seem to want to accept reality. What landlord can afford to build $500/month apartments? Even on a micro-level? Of course, if a landlord DID build apartments they could rent for $500-$700 a month, the tenants would than say they're not nice enough, too small and lack amenities.

Same people want fast food workers to be paid $20/hr but don't want the price of the food to go up.
Since the beginning of what time? Tax subsidies gives one an advantage over another, government choosing one over the other. That is the opposite of what capitalism is, the market decides, not the government.
Otherwise you are making big assumptions on a certain group of people. Try taking a walk in their shoes and see what you experience.
I've been in their shoes. I was once on section 8 housing and barely got by for years. I also didn't think I deserved to live downtown or in a fancy neighborhood because I was realistic. That's all I'm asking them to do, be realistic and understand why things work the way they do.

I don't need to make any assumptions, the things they say are very clear.
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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They forgot to mention the council and neighborhood associations were 100% complicit in that displacement along Armour.

Trivial, but relevant: This project is in Midtown, not downtown.
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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" That's all I'm asking them to do, be realistic and understand why things work the way they do."

So they are just suppose to accept that people with money and connections can just take over their neighborhood and drive them out just because they are undesirable. That is what they understand how things are working.
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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aknowledgeableperson wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:11 am " That's all I'm asking them to do, be realistic and understand why things work the way they do."

So they are just suppose to accept that people with money and connections can just take over their neighborhood and drive them out just because they are undesirable. That is what they understand how things are working.
Parkings lots. This is replacing parking lots
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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DColeKC wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 7:57 am This KC tenants group seems to lack even a basic understanding. How do customers form a union to tell the business owners how to operate? Has anyone taught them what capitalism is? Has anyone taught them there’s no money to be made in affordable housing construction?
Tenants have been forming tenant organizations in large cities for decades. And yes, they do tell the business owner what to do on occasion, and how to operate. "Fix the boiler, or we will withhold rent en masse."

Tenant unions can have rights similar to worker unions. They can be particularly effective in dealing with absentee landlords or those who are not providing basic building maintenance or adhering to city ordinances and codes. They can negotiate tenant/landlord disputes. They can as an organization sue the landlord(s). Tenant organizations can band together and legally withhold rent by placing it in an escrow account until the repairs are made, or the dispute is resolved.

https://www.findlaw.com/realestate/land ... tions.html

When I lived in NYC, the first building I lived in had a tenant's organization and the building only had twelve units. The second building I lived in also had one, and it had 130 units.

There are specific building tenant unions, but there are also neighborhood and community tenant organizations that lobby governments on issues.
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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aknowledgeableperson wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:11 am " That's all I'm asking them to do, be realistic and understand why things work the way they do."

So they are just suppose to accept that people with money and connections can just take over their neighborhood and drive them out just because they are undesirable. That is what they understand how things are working.
I can tell you’re not changing your views on this so not sure why I’m still engaging. First of all, I’ve seen no real evidence that people are being driven out. If rent prices being raised overtime as the expenses also go up is driving them out, how is that because they are “undesirable”?

We can have safe affordable housing downtown but it’s not going to be for much less than $1000/month. They think that’s astronomical. They don’t understand that the new residential buildings contribute to our cities growth, which increases tax revenues which provide assistance to those in need.

They’re all over mac properties now for using the system as designed. Those developers got tax incentives to rehab old buildings and the deal was they had to be income restricted for a certain amount of years. As that mandate is expiring of course they’re going to want to start getting a return on that long term investment. Rents going to go up.

Can’t deny affordable housing is always going to be a difficult situation but they need to stop pretending there’s a large conspiracy to drive out unwanted people.
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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FangKC wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 5:28 am
DColeKC wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 7:57 am This KC tenants group seems to lack even a basic understanding. How do customers form a union to tell the business owners how to operate? Has anyone taught them what capitalism is? Has anyone taught them there’s no money to be made in affordable housing construction?
Tenants have been forming tenant organizations in large cities for decades. And yes, they do tell the business owner what to do on occasion, and how to operate. "Fix the boiler, or we will withhold rent en masse."

Tenant unions can have rights similar to worker unions. They can be particularly effective in dealing with absentee landlords or those who are not providing basic building maintenance or adhering to city ordinances and codes. They can negotiate tenant/landlord disputes. They can as an organization sue the landlord(s). Tenant organizations can band together and legally withhold rent by placing it in an escrow account until the repairs are made, or the dispute is resolved.

https://www.findlaw.com/realestate/land ... tions.html

When I lived in NYC, the first building I lived in had a tenant's organization and the building only had twelve units. The second building I lived in also had one, and it had 130 units.

There are specific building tenant unions, but there are also neighborhood and community tenant organizations that lobby governments on issues.
I get that anyone can form a union. They can serve a good cause like you mentioned, holding the landlords accountable. What they can’t do is tell landlords how to operate their business. They can try. They can suggest and they can make threats but most landlords aren’t getting rich off your rent.

Affordable housing is key but I just wish this particular group would obtain a bit more knowledge before making demands and insane statements.
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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FangKC wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 5:28 am
DColeKC wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 7:57 am This KC tenants group seems to lack even a basic understanding. How do customers form a union to tell the business owners how to operate? Has anyone taught them what capitalism is? Has anyone taught them there’s no money to be made in affordable housing construction?
Tenants have been forming tenant organizations in large cities for decades. And yes, they do tell the business owner what to do on occasion, and how to operate. "Fix the boiler, or we will withhold rent en masse."

Tenant unions can have rights similar to worker unions. They can be particularly effective in dealing with absentee landlords or those who are not providing basic building maintenance or adhering to city ordinances and codes. They can negotiate tenant/landlord disputes. They can as an organization sue the landlord(s). Tenant organizations can band together and legally withhold rent by placing it in an escrow account until the repairs are made, or the dispute is resolved.

https://www.findlaw.com/realestate/land ... tions.html

When I lived in NYC, the first building I lived in had a tenant's organization and the building only had twelve units. The second building I lived in also had one, and it had 130 units.

There are specific building tenant unions, but there are also neighborhood and community tenant organizations that lobby governments on issues.
Yes, I lived in a building in Brooklyn for three years before moving here. We collaborated with a building on the opposite block owned by the same landlord to organize. Nearly all of the units were rent stabilized and there was frequent neglect in order to get the units to turn over (which by the rules made it easier/faster to deregulate them). I was not in the leadership of the group but solidarity made everyone better off, we had to threaten a rent strike twice in the three years I lived there.
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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DColeKC wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 9:29 am Since the beginning of time?

Tax subsidies aren't anti-capitalism but that's not event the point. These groups don't seem to want to accept reality. What landlord can afford to build $500/month apartments? Even on a micro-level? Of course, if a landlord DID build apartments they could rent for $500-$700 a month, the tenants would than say they're not nice enough, too small and lack amenities.

Same people want fast food workers to be paid $20/hr but don't want the price of the food to go up.
Yes, please, spare a thought for the unfortunate landlord who can't generate a profit off of housing the poors. We must "accept reality." Which reality? The reality that for-profit housing that leaves thousands of people homeless is an intentional policy choice and not an inevitable law of nature? No, the other "reality," the one where you don't deserve a home if you can't pad someone's bottom line.
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Re: Downtown New Residential Units

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DColeKC wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 8:49 am Affordable housing is key but I just wish this particular group would obtain a bit more knowledge before making demands and insane statements.
I agree that they should educate themselves, and have demonstrated a lack of knowledge thus far. However, we should tread lightly mocking them simply because many low-income tenants sometimes don't have good educations or connections with people who are well-educated and professionals like attorneys who might help them. They have the fewest resources of any among us. Yes, they have made mistakes, but we shouldn't be demonizing them for attempting to stand up for themselves. In their minds, they are being threatened and many of them likely feel they have no place to go if they are displaced. Which is probably true. They often are vulnerable financially and rent from landlords who do exploit their situation. They don't have the power to confront their landlord when their house or apartment is not up to code or needs necessary repairs.

Let me give you an example. Before my neighborhood started to see its old houses being renovated, several of them were run-down rental units. There was a disabled lady living across the street from me. She asked to borrow my lawn mower. She couldn't afford a mower, her landlord didn't provide a mower, and she couldn't afford to pay someone. I ended up mowing her lawn for free when I mowed mine since it was so small. She had fallen climbing a ladder in a warehouse where she had worked, broke her leg, and severely fractured her ankle--requiring surgery. Of course, her employer hadn't provided health insurance. Workman's comp covered her surgery, but she was rendered disabled by the injury--affecting her ability to stand and walk.

Her roof leaked. She couldn't run a window air conditioner if she had several other things turned on, or it would flip the breaker. The furnace broke down several times, and she would go days without heat. Her refrigerator was broken for an extended period. A burglar attempted to break into her house and ended up breaking out the glass in her bedroom window. The landlord didn't repair the glass, and she taped a piece of cardboard over it. During the winter, her bedroom was so cold she had to sleep on her couch. The pipes burst and flooded the basement because he had failed to fix the furnace promptly. She was without water for 6 weeks. She used her neighbor's outside water spigot to fill a bucket with water (with permission) to flush her toilet, and bathed at a friend's house. She was afraid to report the landlord to the City for the code violations because the rent was so cheap. She didn't have anywhere else to go, and couldn't come up with a deposit for a new place. The waiting list for public housing at the time was 3 years. Finally, in desperation about not having water, she reported the landlord to the City. They sent inspectors out and declared the house uninhabitable that day and told her she had to leave the premises. A rental house is considered inhabitable if there is no running water. The water leak had also caused mold in the basement. The City literally evicted her and only let her take a couple of garbage bags of her clothes with her that day. Of course, the City didn't provide her with another place to live. They advised her to go to a woman's shelter. The City boarded up the house. She couldn't even get inside to get the rest of her possessions out.

She went and stayed with a friend for a few nights, but after that, she was homeless and floated among various places: friend's couches and homeless shelters. She was never able to come to get possessions out of the house because she had no place to take them. The landlord sold the house to a house flipper and it was renovated. The new owner hired a dumpster and had all her things removed and taken to the dump.

She had a poor education. She couldn't afford an attorney. She was vulnerable because of her financial situation. She had no financial reserves to fall back on. She didn't have good credit because she was unemployable and behind on bills she was still paying off after suddenly being thrown out of work because of an accident. I knew how she was struggling just to eat because I supplemented her out of my vegetable garden in the summers. She didn't have a car, so I sometimes drove her to the food banks. I saw what they gave her, and it was a mish-mash of things that most couldn't make a meal with alone. They would give her a bag of egg noodles that she would boil and eat by itself. She lived on generic macaroni and cheese. She didn't have milk or butter to add to it.

The reason I tell this story is to illustrate that many poor people tolerate this treatment from landlords simply because they can't afford to complain, move, and don't have anywhere else to go -- but the street. They live in terror of that prospect and thus stay in unsafe and unhealthy situations. When they do speak up for themselves and report the landlord, they are punished by being put out on the street by the City.

One doesn't have to be desperately poor to have problems renting.

Many residents have difficulty coming up with a deposit. It's because they live month-to-month on low incomes. They often have no credit because they have been laid off at some point and got behind on their bills, had a bankruptcy, or have medical bills (most common reasons). This doesn't necessarily mean they are irresponsible people. Life can be brutal when you live on the low end of the economy. One of my best friends in NYC had difficulty renting apartments simply because he was a musician. It's hard to demonstrate an employment history when you get paid at different nightclubs in various cities, or from gig backup musician work.

I had another friend who had the same problem because he was a nightclub promoter. He was a very successful one and made good money. He didn't have an employment history because he'd done that since he got out of high school. He essentially worked for himself. He couldn't get an apartment lease in New York City on his own. I had to co-sign the lease to get his first apartment. They approved it because I had a good employment history and credit. The ironic thing was that my friend made three times the yearly income than I did. When he moved to LA to promote, he bought his first house in Silver Lake for cash.

When I left New York and moved to Kansas City, there was one apartment complex that refused to rent to me because I moved here without having a job. I could afford the rent. I had enough savings at the time. I could have paid the deposits and rent for the entire year all at once. They still wouldn't give me a lease. I have never missed a rental or mortgage payment in my life, and I have good credit.

When I lived downtown, my apartment complex announced it was going condo and was ending the leases. Instead of looking for another apartment, I just bought a house. Many people can't do that when they are displaced.
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