Streetcar to the riverfront

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TheBigChuckbowski
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by TheBigChuckbowski »

GRID wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:48 pm I still think a high quality Airport Express bus route from the city to KCI would be ten times better than any sort of rail anyway.
Seriously, have people used airport dedicated buses with luggage racks? It's a better experience than rail and exponentially cheaper and, if designed right, way faster.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by WoodDraw »

Express bus would be perfect but you have to be so judicial with stops.
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

WoodDraw wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 1:27 pm Express bus would be perfect but you have to be so judicial with stops.
Pretty much nothing between airport and DT, maybe one? The one I took from Dublin airport to DT had two stops before we got to downtown, and then a few after, but I think only have 5-6 total, then went back to the airport. A system like that could work well
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GRID
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by GRID »

I would say a stop at Briarcliff and a stop at Barry Road maybe one at 64th. Make sure they are slip ramp stops so they barely even slow the buses down. Build garages at those three stops for park and rides but have dedicated luggage space on buses for airport travelers.

Similar to the Express bus stops between Denver and Boulder.

And you really don't need dedicated lanes. I-29 and 169 are not congested. Just need bus only lanes near the stops. Could build a really nice system for probably 100 million.
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DaveKCMO
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by DaveKCMO »

Park and ride garages should be funded by someone else, perhaps as part of a joint development. It is (and always has been) a terribly inefficient use of limited transit dollars.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by WoodDraw »

It’s also just wishcasting. Stop trying to make park and ride work.
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

WoodDraw wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:41 pm It’s also just wishcasting. Stop trying to make park and ride work.
Seriously though, park and ride is for heavy commuter rail, and when you have a fully fleshed urban rail network with parking on the periphery’s. Outside of those situations it doesn’t make sense
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GRID
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by GRID »

WoodDraw wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:41 pm It’s also just wishcasting. Stop trying to make park and ride work.
I'm not the one that wants to move the streetcars beyond the urban core when they literally go down one street...

I think rail to KCI in general is stupid as hell and people need to stop thinking about it. Same with rail to Village West etc.

The only place in KC where rail makes any sense at all is the I-70 corridor on the MO side only. And in that corridor, the stadium parking lots (which already exist) could be a very good park and ride option for people not just working downtown, but for those visiting for concerts, shows, festivals, city market, a future baseball stadium etc.

But honestly, I would much rather see KCMO build out a 20-30 mile urban streetcar system than put in any regional rail line. Especially if it's a cheaply built LRT "lite" line that runs mostly in mixed traffic which is all KC would ever build. That would be so expensive for the return on investment.

Concentrate on the urban core. KC has way too many highways and low density sprawl to really justify any sort of regional rail. The KC metro just needs a better bus system, but considering the bus system in KCMO has turned into sort of a joke in the past ten years outside maybe the troost max, a better regional system seems unlikely.
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

Public meeting coming up on Thursday, Dec 8th, from 5-7pm. Location is TBA. I know a few folks already planning on attending, hope to see some familiar faces, as well as some new ones there, or possibly another KCRag meetup following?
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DaveKCMO
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by DaveKCMO »

Dec. 8 public meeting for the streetcar extension and the new bike/ped bridge:
https://fox4kc.com/business/kansas-city ... c-meeting/
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by KCPowercat »

Good to see in print the ped/bike path. It was starting to feel like it was axed
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smh
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by smh »

I still don't really understand the usefulness of this extension. What are the ridership projections? Taking it to the Current stadium seems to be the new selling point, but won't the vehicle be stuck in stadium traffic on the bridge, potentially impacting operations for the entire line down to UMKC?

KC Streetcar stands out because of how well it was executed. I guess I'm just worried this is going to muck up the existing system and harm the overall productivity of the service.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by dukuboy1 »

perhaps there will be game day traffic patterns in place that will not allow car traffic within the area the street car runs. Or perhaps they add a dedicated vehicle to service just that area from 3rd Street down to the Current Stadium with no through car traffic on the bridge. So it is a ppl mover/shuttle during match days/nights. Then the regular street cars could operate on the rest of the route and not get caught up down there.

I thought in that area North of 3rd & Grand they were planning a transit center of sorts. In the parking lot area that already serves as a bus stop and bus terminal for long some long haul bus lines. Seems like including the street car in the design for that could help resolve this concern.

Have the street car go into the Riverfront & over to the Casino (or close) will go a long way for that area to be engaged and put up mixed use of residential and commercial, especially entertainment places to make the area more of a draw.
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GRID
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by GRID »

smh wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:36 pm I still don't really understand the usefulness of this extension. What are the ridership projections? Taking it to the Current stadium seems to be the new selling point, but won't the vehicle be stuck in stadium traffic on the bridge, potentially impacting operations for the entire line down to UMKC?

KC Streetcar stands out because of how well it was executed. I guess I'm just worried this is going to muck up the existing system and harm the overall productivity of the service.
It honestly only makes sense if the line continued on across a new bridge to NKC making the Riverfront a stop on the line rather than odd spur. Especially considering that the area is being built out relatively low density and even when fully built out it's not that many people.

Personally I think it's great to hit the Riverfront if they build a new dedicated transit/pedestrian bridge across the river which I think should happen but I know it won't.

Plus if it goes to the casino, it will really make the extension not work as part of a line to NKC.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by KCPowercat »

smh wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:36 pm I still don't really understand the usefulness of this extension. What are the ridership projections? Taking it to the Current stadium seems to be the new selling point, but won't the vehicle be stuck in stadium traffic on the bridge, potentially impacting operations for the entire line down to UMKC?

KC Streetcar stands out because of how well it was executed. I guess I'm just worried this is going to muck up the existing system and harm the overall productivity of the service.
Connection of the housing that has little link to downtown now. The ped/bike bridge will obviously help that too.

Also if (I believe it will) go under 35 to Isle of Capri and the city owned lot there would add value.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by KCPowercat »

moved NKC posts to NKC thraed
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smh
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by smh »

KCPowercat wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:28 pm
smh wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:36 pm I still don't really understand the usefulness of this extension. What are the ridership projections? Taking it to the Current stadium seems to be the new selling point, but won't the vehicle be stuck in stadium traffic on the bridge, potentially impacting operations for the entire line down to UMKC?

KC Streetcar stands out because of how well it was executed. I guess I'm just worried this is going to muck up the existing system and harm the overall productivity of the service.
Connection of the housing that has little link to downtown now. The ped/bike bridge will obviously help that too.

Also if (I believe it will) go under 35 to Isle of Capri and the city owned lot there would add value.
I just struggle to get onboard (hehe) with the vision. We're talking a relative handful of apartments and a significant amount of money to get down there, plus operational impacts to any future extension over the river (as mentioned by GRID). Had Port executed the original vision for the Riverfront as a dense walkable neighborhood with thousands of residents then I think this routing might be justifiable. But as is it just doesn't seem justified. Run a shuttle to 3rd and Grand.

I mean, I am happy to be wrong but I am also aware that a lot of American streetcar systems try to do too much and end up being less useful than they might otherwise have been. The great thing about KC is we got it exactly right on the starter line which is why our system gets great press and kills most others on ridership. To me, the riverfront extension does not build on that success but rather dilutes it.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by KCPowercat »

smh wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:51 am
KCPowercat wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:28 pm
smh wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:36 pm I still don't really understand the usefulness of this extension. What are the ridership projections? Taking it to the Current stadium seems to be the new selling point, but won't the vehicle be stuck in stadium traffic on the bridge, potentially impacting operations for the entire line down to UMKC?

KC Streetcar stands out because of how well it was executed. I guess I'm just worried this is going to muck up the existing system and harm the overall productivity of the service.
Connection of the housing that has little link to downtown now. The ped/bike bridge will obviously help that too.

Also if (I believe it will) go under 35 to Isle of Capri and the city owned lot there would add value.
I just struggle to get onboard (hehe) with the vision. We're talking a relative handful of apartments and a significant amount of money to get down there, plus operational impacts to any future extension over the river (as mentioned by GRID). Had Port executed the original vision for the Riverfront as a dense walkable neighborhood with thousands of residents then I think this routing might be justifiable. But as is it just doesn't seem justified. Run a shuttle to 3rd and Grand.

I mean, I am happy to be wrong but I am also aware that a lot of American streetcar systems try to do too much and end up being less useful than they might otherwise have been. The great thing about KC is we got it exactly right on the starter line which is why our system gets great press and kills most others on ridership. To me, the riverfront extension does not build on that success but rather dilutes it.
I've always had the same concerns and confusion.
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grovester
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by grovester »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it funded primarily by Port KC?

Always seemed like low hanging fruit, why not?
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