Streetcar to the riverfront

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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

TheLastGentleman wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:52 pm I keep seeing the KCI rail idea shot down, but it makes me confused. Are other airport rail systems not well used? Was Denver's a waste?
MASSIVE upfront cost for negligible return at best, at worst basically sunk all of our transit funding as a region for the better half of half a century. BRT with maybe 2 stops between airport and downtown would provide same connectivity with a cost that’s not even close to the magnitude of fixed rail transit ROW
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:54 pmMASSIVE upfront cost for negligible return at best, at worst basically sunk all of our transit funding as a region for the better half of half a century. BRT with maybe 2 stops between airport and downtown would provide same connectivity with a cost that’s not even close to the magnitude of fixed rail transit ROW
Ok.....so how did it work out for Denver?
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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TheLastGentleman wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:22 pm
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:54 pmMASSIVE upfront cost for negligible return at best, at worst basically sunk all of our transit funding as a region for the better half of half a century. BRT with maybe 2 stops between airport and downtown would provide same connectivity with a cost that’s not even close to the magnitude of fixed rail transit ROW
Ok.....so how did it work out for Denver?
They have a million more people than KC metro, it’s a busier airport, they have more tourism travel, and it’s still a struggling LRT system. I’m not opposed to Rail to the airport, but unless it’s a well organized plan, and we increase air traffic, it’ll be a huge cost when other corridors exist that could have immensely more utility for the metro area
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:42 pmThey have a million more people than KC metro, it’s a busier airport, they have more tourism travel, and it’s still a struggling LRT system. I’m not opposed to Rail to the airport, but unless it’s a well organized plan, and we increase air traffic, it’ll be a huge cost when other corridors exist that could have immensely more utility for the metro area
In what way does it struggle?
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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TheLastGentleman wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:00 pm
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:42 pmThey have a million more people than KC metro, it’s a busier airport, they have more tourism travel, and it’s still a struggling LRT system. I’m not opposed to Rail to the airport, but unless it’s a well organized plan, and we increase air traffic, it’ll be a huge cost when other corridors exist that could have immensely more utility for the metro area
In what way does it struggle?
Overall, not specifically the airport line. Given that’s multifaceted. Given I’ve not found specific ridership info for DIA line, but if you have something that paints a different picture absolutely link it here. I’d love to be proven wrong on this so we can justify an airport route, I’ve just yet to see anything that says otherwise
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:42 pm
TheLastGentleman wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:22 pm
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:54 pmMASSIVE upfront cost for negligible return at best, at worst basically sunk all of our transit funding as a region for the better half of half a century. BRT with maybe 2 stops between airport and downtown would provide same connectivity with a cost that’s not even close to the magnitude of fixed rail transit ROW
Ok.....so how did it work out for Denver?
They have a million more people than KC metro, it’s a busier airport, they have more tourism travel, and it’s still a struggling LRT system. I’m not opposed to Rail to the airport, but unless it’s a well organized plan, and we increase air traffic, it’ll be a huge cost when other corridors exist that could have immensely more utility for the metro area
Not to mention Denver rail line is actually a heavy rail line in a dedicated right of way that goes directly to union station and a much larger downtown. It really does not make any sense to build any sort of rail to KCI Airport.

I don't know why everybody wants streetcars to go all over the metro when it goes down one street in the city. People should be wanting the urban core well served by streetcar lines first. Just run buses up and down 29. It would cost a tiny fraction of the cost and actually work better for users to have a nice airport express bus than a rail line.
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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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GRID wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:40 pm
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:42 pm
TheLastGentleman wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:22 pm

Ok.....so how did it work out for Denver?
They have a million more people than KC metro, it’s a busier airport, they have more tourism travel, and it’s still a struggling LRT system. I’m not opposed to Rail to the airport, but unless it’s a well organized plan, and we increase air traffic, it’ll be a huge cost when other corridors exist that could have immensely more utility for the metro area
Not to mention Denver rail line is actually a heavy rail line in a dedicated right of way that goes directly to union station and a much larger downtown. It really does not make any sense to build any sort of rail to KCI Airport.

I don't know why everybody wants streetcars to go all over the metro when it goes down one street in the city. People should be wanting the urban core well served by streetcar lines first. Just run buses up and down 29. It would cost a tiny fraction of the cost and actually work better for users to have a nice airport express bus than a rail line.
Agreed with above,however, if we are to do rail to the airport, it should be how Denver did and have a LRT or HRT system that terminated at union station with dedicated ROW the entire time
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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Also forgot to post this, but looks like some initial survey work has been performed or is about to be performed for the pedestrian/bike bridge adjacent to Grand viaduct. Not sure how well it shows up for y’all, but the wooden stakes with pink tape represent what will in total be a 10’ wide connection.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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TheLastGentleman wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:52 pm I keep seeing the KCI rail idea shot down, but it makes me confused. Are other airport rail systems not well used? Was Denver's a waste?
I'm only against it to the extent that it competes with other corridors I think are more important. Frankly as others have said, not sure about the airport line specifically, but Denver's system overall struggles with ridership and they are not the model I would seek to follow.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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smh wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:27 pm I still don't really understand the utility of streetcar to the riverfront. I am trying to keep an open mind and would count myself among the top streetcar boosters, but it feels like the cost/benefit just isn't there. An expensive extension for limited ridership gains that will impact frequency north of the river in the future (probably) and complicate scheduling south of the river.
Also, back to the point of the riverfront extension... I think with the Current stadium and the residential, and if there are longer term goals of activating the riverfront then it makes enough sense. Though, more density would have been highly desirable for these new residential projects. Opportunities are being missed on the riverfront for sure.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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Agree that the SC to Riverfront doesn't make a ton of sense from an overall perspective. Beyond the Casino, where else can it go? In 100 years, there's always going to be that weird extension there. But since the Port Authority is paying a lot for it and there'll be a new stadium down there too, I have come around to the idea. But there's definitely other routes that make more sense.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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FlippantCitizen wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:04 am
TheLastGentleman wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:52 pm I keep seeing the KCI rail idea shot down, but it makes me confused. Are other airport rail systems not well used? Was Denver's a waste?
I'm only against it to the extent that it competes with other corridors I think are more important. Frankly as others have said, not sure about the airport line specifically, but Denver's system overall struggles with ridership and they are not the model I would seek to follow.
Denver is the main reason why I gave up on LRT for the KC metro. I've used it a ton and it is worthless & a giant waste. If it works that bad in Denver, it's gonna be no better in KC.

With that being said, a big urban streetcar network in KCMO would be fantastic and would work very well for everyone. That's what Denver didn't do.

The only place I want rail in KC outside the urban frame is to the airport. Other than that, just keep expanding the urban streetcar network.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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alejandro46 wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 9:25 am Agree that the SC to Riverfront doesn't make a ton of sense from an overall perspective. Beyond the Casino, where else can it go? In 100 years, there's always going to be that weird extension there. But since the Port Authority is paying a lot for it and there'll be a new stadium down there too, I have come around to the idea. But there's definitely other routes that make more sense.
Depending on the development trends of the next 50 or so years you could easily have infill into the east bottoms area, given that would likely be after most everywhere else has already seen infill, but it leaves open a few options
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 12:41 pm
alejandro46 wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 9:25 am Agree that the SC to Riverfront doesn't make a ton of sense from an overall perspective. Beyond the Casino, where else can it go? In 100 years, there's always going to be that weird extension there. But since the Port Authority is paying a lot for it and there'll be a new stadium down there too, I have come around to the idea. But there's definitely other routes that make more sense.
Depending on the development trends of the next 50 or so years you could easily have infill into the east bottoms area, given that would likely be after most everywhere else has already seen infill, but it leaves open a few options
Doesn’t Bond bridge have support for rail?
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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normalthings wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 1:24 pm
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 12:41 pm
alejandro46 wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 9:25 am Agree that the SC to Riverfront doesn't make a ton of sense from an overall perspective. Beyond the Casino, where else can it go? In 100 years, there's always going to be that weird extension there. But since the Port Authority is paying a lot for it and there'll be a new stadium down there too, I have come around to the idea. But there's definitely other routes that make more sense.
Depending on the development trends of the next 50 or so years you could easily have infill into the east bottoms area, given that would likely be after most everywhere else has already seen infill, but it leaves open a few options
Doesn’t Bond bridge have support for rail?
As in was it built with rail in mind? I honestly have no idea..
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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just keep expanding the urban streetcar network

This.

KCI is not a busy airport and it's 20 miles away from a downtown that has almost no major corporations that would use it. The return on investment is just not there. How many actual travelers would use a LRT to KCI? Probably under under 1000 people a day, if that. Plus, I don't see KC building a proper LRT line ever. If rail ever went to KCI, it would be some stupid tram on street thing that would take an hour and a half to get there. KC will never build a true LRT line in a dedicated right of way. It would be a very budget train line so it would be useless for 99% of air travelers. Yet it would still cost 1 - 1.5 billion dollars.

You could really build up the urban core tram system with that kind of money and change the entire direction of many parts of urban KCMO.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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GRID wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:12 pm
just keep expanding the urban streetcar network

This.

KCI is not a busy airport and it's 20 miles away from a downtown that has almost no major corporations that would use it. The return on investment is just not there. How many actual travelers would use a LRT to KCI? Probably under under 1000 people a day, if that. Plus, I don't see KC building a proper LRT line ever. If rail ever went to KCI, it would be some stupid tram on street thing that would take an hour and a half to get there. KC will never build a true LRT line in a dedicated right of way. It would be a very budget train line so it would be useless for 99% of air travelers. Yet it would still cost 1 - 1.5 billion dollars.

You could really build up the urban core tram system with that kind of money and change the entire direction of many parts of urban KCMO.
Generally I agree with you. It doesn't make a ton of sense but the urban core cannot fund it alone and a citywide vote is required. If you want Northland to fund it as part of a regional ask, then investment needs to be made in the Northland. There is room to increase density in the North along a line up North Oak and to Zona Rosa. At that point, you are 5.8 miles from the airport. However, you could also head towards Liberty instead along a new Barry Road alignment.

Either way, the onboardings per mile will be monumentally higher if you go east and south instead... It's definitely a dilemma. On topic, the Riverfront is an exciting and *near term* expansion. It's sort of like would you rather wait around for a better expansion opportunity in this area to come, or just take their money and activate the really nice riverfront amenities and developing land now?
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

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That's why you do a KCMO/Jackson County vote and not include Clay and Platte. Unless they are okay with simply having better bus service. Taking the streetcar north of downtown NKC is just a colossal waste of money.

I still think a high quality Airport Express bus route from the city to KCI would be ten times better than any sort of rail anyway. It would be faster for sure and would likely come closer to more hotels etc than having to first make your way to Main street to ride a slow tram all the way through the city and up to KCI via North Oak etc. Even if they built LRT to KCI, it would likely start away from downtown, so you would to still have to get to a tram and take that up to where it turns into light rail.

Or you can catch a coach commuter bus with luggage racks that takes you to the terminal from downtown/midtown in 20-30 minutes.

Leave Clay and Platte for other issues like stadiums, zoo, museums etc since they use those assets and will likely help fund them. It doesn't make sense for them pay for Jackson County's rail system.

I don't get why Jackson County doesn't do a transit vote alone. It's really the only county in the metro where higher forms of transit will work and where a high percentage of residents will get something out of raising their taxes to fund it. It contains the main urban core, the working class high transit ridership inner city, many inner suburbs and large commuter suburbs all within a single county. Not to mention it would connect everything together such as the stadiums to the hotels. Throw in a true BRT to Liberty and Metro North and a KCI Express Coach and you have a complete MO side transit system.

But start with Jackson County. Build another 10-15 miles of urban streetcar, build up the bus system and get at least one LRT line out to Blue Springs or Lee's Summit from downtown.

With 720,000 people, the county could easily build a multi-billion dollar urban/regional transit system within the county. The county has low taxes and has never done anything like this to build up its infrastructure.
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by TheUrbanRoo »

I'm not so sure at this point Clay or Platte would vote against the streetcar
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Re: Streetcar to the riverfront

Post by WoodDraw »

The US is just really bad at building transit.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/09/us/c ... ticleShare

That should hopefully get rid of the paywall legally. It's worth reading and I think instructive.
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