Is Midtown Marketplace one of the city's greatest blunders?

[Long]

Indeed. Exactly.

Won't find much thinking out of the box in the day to day business as usual mindset of those operations though its unfortunate they cling to the old "model". Best Buy tried some small inner core urban concept models but none of them made it except for a small handful.


I'll add that there is no reason for New Thinkers to toss in the towel though.

Soon or later their ship will come in.

You can work toward a goal where everything fits into the perfect model of urbanity, but you can't force it.  You can't justify the cost of a parking garage when the land for surface parking is cheap and available.  It sucks, but that's how it is.  We all like to talk about what is ideal, but that's easy when you're spending someone else's money.

I think all we can do is build stuff to get people into the city and get them excited about being there.  Follow urban design principles as much as you can, but sometimes you have to make compromises.  Over time, as more and more people move back into the city, the value of the land will increase, and surface lots will be replaced by buildings.  You can't force density.  You can encourage it, you can set it as a goal, but you can't force it.  In terms of the bigger picture, right now, some of you want a parking garage in the middle of a prairie.  You think in terms of black and white, how parking garages are preferred over surface lots.  Yes, they are, but in context, it just isn't feasible.  You build parking garages and taller buildings when there isn't any land left.  (Yes there are a few exceptions, I know)

There are very fine lines between (a) not having enough built, so the development you have is dead, (b) building too much on speculation, so the market is saturated, real estate values drop, and no one wants to be there because there is so much vacancy, and finally (c) finding that sweet spot so you have enough activity to attract people and enough vacancy for people to move in.  It isn't just about vision.  There are realities, and there are risks.  If it were just a case of "build as much as you can and they will come," I'm pretty sure it would happen.  The people on this board aren't smarter than every developer on the face of the earth.

Back on topic, trailerkid's diagrams at least illustrate that Midtown Marketplace can be fixed without just blowing it up and starting over.

[Steve52]

Back on topic, trailerkid's diagrams at least illustrate that Midtown Marketplace can be fixed without just blowing it up and starting over.

Yeah I agree.  Nice idea.  Concept.  Maybe we can put a task force with some of this talent around here together and march down to the City planners office and say,

look nitwits, here is how it works. This is the way things can be.

[justin8216]

I'm saying, the developers won't do it unless the pot is very very sweet at this point.  The costs of building, maintaining, and policing garages are several multiples of surface lots which is what makes them very expensive and feasible only where land prices/constraints force it.  If you can make the numers work go ahead, i'm not going to complain.  But just consider that the garage in downtown Lawrence, on New Hampshire cost 8 million dollars to build, and i don't think that even includes the cost of purchasing the land   

I know The Legends and I think Zona Rosa both used Transportation Development Districts (TDD) to pay for their parking garages. Surely the Mid-Market Place could do the same. Add six tenths of a cent to the sales tax and viola 16 million dollars for a parking garage. This doesn't work with other developments downtown because they don't generate sales tax, but for a retail development like the Mid-Town Market Place it would seem to me that funding a parking garage should be fairly easy.

[bahua]

I know The Legends and I think Zona Rosa both used Transportation Development Districts (TDD) to pay for their parking garages. Surely the Mid-Market Place could do the same. Add six tenths of a cent to the sales tax and viola 16 million dollars for a parking garage. This doesn't work with other developments downtown because they don't generate sales tax, but for a retail development like the Mid-Town Market Place it would seem to me that funding a parking garage should be fairly easy.

Or, they can just do nothing, leave the huge surface lots, and continue to collect sales tax on what they have.

[trailerkid]

Or, they can just do nothing, leave the huge surface lots, and continue to collect sales tax on what they have.

Which is what will happen as this was all just a hypothetical situation. However, I don't know if Costco/Home Depot own or lease. If they lease, they would have to go along with whatever their landlord wanted unless they decided to get out of the lease. It doesn't take a lot of foresight to realize that adding a surrounding multi-million dollar retail development would likely increase revenue at the existing big boxes. Costco and Home Depot are smart people and could probably see the long term gains over the short term hassle.

[Long]

Which is what will happen as this was all just a hypothetical situation. However, I don't know if Costco/Home Depot own or lease. If they lease, they would have to go along with whatever their landlord wanted unless they decided to get out of the lease. It doesn't take a lot of foresight to realize that adding a surrounding multi-million dollar retail development would likely increase revenue at the existing big boxes. Costco and Home Depot are smart people and could probably see the long term gains over the short term hassle.

If they are leasing, they are likely leasing the building and the parking.  If the landlord took the parking away, I would think that would give the tenant a way out of their lease.

That said, I would think Home Depot and Costco are smart enough to realize the potential benefit of getting more retail and residential in there.  Especially residential . . . I don't have a Costco membership, but if I lived two blocks away I would sign up just for the convenience.  I think Home Depot has a store in downtown Chicago (?), storefront on the street with no surface parking, so a model exists.  As long as both stores had a generously sized pick-up/drop-off point, you park in the garage, go in and shop, bring your stuff to the drop-off, go get your car and bring it to the drop-off and load it up.  That's an extra step, opposed to just pushing your cart across the lot to your car, but you get the added benefit of an attendant to help you load up under the canopy.

Plus it's not like the entire surface lot would have to go away all at once.  Phase the new development in and ween everyone off the surface lots gradually.

[voltopt]

I think Home Depot has a store in downtown Chicago (?), storefront on the street with no surface parking, so a model exists. 

that store is actually a little north of downtown, in halstead.  its in a neighborhood of mainly 3 story attached and detached row houses.  so, they know how to do it in a successful residential neighborhood.
i think the area around home depot in midtown, with creative developrs, could experience a similar surge...

[trailerkid]

I don't have a Costco membership, but if I lived two blocks away I would sign up just for the convenience.  I think Home Depot has a store in downtown Chicago (?), storefront on the street with no surface parking, so a model exists.  As long as both stores had a generously sized pick-up/drop-off point, you park in the garage, go in and shop, bring your stuff to the drop-off, go get your car and bring it to the drop-off and load it up.  That's an extra step, opposed to just pushing your cart across the lot to your car, but you get the added benefit of an attendant to help you load up under the canopy.

The set-up for both stores would be almost identical after the addition except they would both end up with more parking in the end. The parking decks would basically replace the lots and have the retail wrapped around most of the exterior. Parking would only be steps away from the entrances and offer multi-level, covered parking for shoppers. The only thing happening is an increase in the density of the development around the two big boxes. One drawback is the density of the development would help hide the actual big box stores...some good signage could easily resolve that.

[voltopt]

possibly a creative cross street could help alleviate that as well, a sort of "34th Street" or "33rd Terrace" that connected main street and gilham....

[tjokskalle]

It was called the Glover plan.Glover is such an idiot.

[Tosspot]

It was called the Glover plan.Glover is such an idiot.

I don't know that it's so black-and-white. That parcel sat blighted for years amid wrangling over how to remedy it. Granted, such bilge is indeed a travesty in the urban form though.

[warwickland]

i would venture that wasting the northlands potential on unsustainable auto-centric sprawl will be the city's greatest blunder of the decade, if not worse.

[chrizow]

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tosspot]

As stupid as it is, I think the planners in charge around the time of the construction of KCI must have been positively giddy at the thought of filling in the area between downtown and KCI with as much suburban car dependent crap as possible. That makes it easy to pad your sales and property tax income without having to actually use your brain cells to put forth something of more lasting value.

[trailerkid]

I don't know that it's so black-and-white. That parcel sat blighted for years amid wrangling over how to remedy it. Granted, such bilge is indeed a travesty in the urban form though.

You cannot replace blight with a big box and a parking lot.

[midtown guy]

I live very close to the The Costco/Home Depot area -- and those retailers are invaluable to the area.  Most of the homes in the area are very old and have decayed greatly over the past decades.  These retailers offer building materials, decorating supplies and groceries to a huge group of people who are trying to revitalize this area.

That said, I completely agree that they are a terrible eye-sore.  The biggest problem is that KCMO has the same parking requirements that were set in place in the 1940s.  There is enough parking around those two retailers to accommodate the day after Thanksgiving (Costco's biggest day) with the first beautiful day of spring (Home Depot) to happen on the same day -- with room to spare.  The parking codes that are set up for a suburban environment is killing the redevelopment and needs to be fixed soon!  This is why Caliente isn't able to set up in the Crossroads and why there is so much dead space around these two box retailers.  There is a better way...

[voltopt]

there is definitely a better way.


there was an art film theater and later porn theatre on the west side of main near the mcdonalds, originally called the Kimo or something like that.  there was a notoriously bad apartment complex on the northwest corner of the area called Warner Plaza.

[bahua]

I'm not concerned that they're eyesores. I could care less. I'm concerned that they, through their scope and scale, make it basically impossible to compete with them, within a reasonable distance.

[warwickland]

does anybody have any pictures of the area from the 80s-90s?

[trailerkid]

there is definitely a better way.


there was an art film theater and later porn theatre on the west side of main near the mcdonalds, originally called the Kimo or something like that.  there was a notoriously bad apartment complex on the northwest corner of the area called Warner Plaza.

If KC tore down every "notoriously bad apartment complex" in Midtown it would look like the parking lot for Nebraska Furniture Mart.