KCRag Forum

If you follow the building permit data from the Census Bureau, it does reinforce the idea that Indy's growth is lower density. Indy edges KC in total number of permits, but that is based on a high number of single family homes.

For the past three years Indy's total permits are 33,805 units with 75% single family. KC's total is 31,309 units with 57% single family. Columbus's numbers look a little closer to KC in both totals and single vs multi-family breakdown.

^Yup, KC finally building more density within than sprawl. Indy is not. For the first two months of this year, KC has quite a bit more multifamily permits than SFH. Indy metro still has more raw growth but KC has better urbane living experience and doing a better job infilling older burbs recently.

The Boomer shift south, downsizing and death rate is also expected to leave a lot of single family homes available in Midwest. Will be interesting to see how that plays out over 20+ years as Boomer share of population declines and younger generations breed less (and higher % may not at all).

earthling wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:47 pm ^KC metro is still larger than Indy metro but Indy city (860K) will probably maintain its lead over KCMO city proper (500K+) for quite a while. Indy metro may overtake KC metro at some point. May take over a decade and not suggesting it will happen, but good chance given the abundance of rust belt population shift, which is really a jobs shift and Indy and Columbus metros are gaining more than their share of Rust Belt region jobs.

Yes, but KC proper is growing faster than Indy proper. To be fair, KC proper is doing better than alot of urban cities surprisingly. Check out how low Dallas's is.

^Also helps that E Side KCMO is getting a decent chunk of investments and momentum. Inner WyCo not getting same level of investments but immigrants are helping to make it more functionally viable.

Indy sucks compared to KCMO. I'm sort of surprised they don't get more mid and high rise construction downtown. It's just tons of 5 story wood framed apartments. The one thing they do have though is hotels. Their downtown probably has three times as many hotel rooms as KCMO does.

Is there a breakdown of where the housing permits are in KCMO? If not by census tract, at least by county?

This tracks KCMO permits but not updated for 2022 yet...
https://www.kcmo.gov/city-hall/departme ... -dashboard

Post Dispatch says KC only growing faster mostly because of Hispanics. Not sure I buy that but it may be true.

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... 664ad.html

that's just STL trying to find a reason why it's not growing lol what's funny is one of my best friend's dads is mentioned in this article.

in all seriousness though Hispanic growth probably was a considerable amount of the extreme slow growth 90's and 00's, though numerous other immigrant groups came in as well, but in the last decade I would say growth has picked up due to downtown resurgence and a faster growing northland.

daGOAT wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:21 am that's just STL trying to find a reason why it's not growing lol what's funny is one of my best friend's dads is mentioned in this article.

in all seriousness though Hispanic growth probably was a considerable amount of the extreme slow growth 90's and 00's, though numerous other immigrant groups came in as well, but in the last decade I would say growth has picked up due to downtown resurgence and a faster growing northland.

I would say the Hispanic thing is true for KCK, but not as much in KCMO.

GRID wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:23 am

daGOAT wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:21 am that's just STL trying to find a reason why it's not growing lol what's funny is one of my best friend's dads is mentioned in this article.

in all seriousness though Hispanic growth probably was a considerable amount of the extreme slow growth 90's and 00's, though numerous other immigrant groups came in as well, but in the last decade I would say growth has picked up due to downtown resurgence and a faster growing northland.

I would say the Hispanic thing is true for KCK, but not as much in KCMO.

yeah the Hispanic population is arguably the sole driver for any KCK growth lol if anything the Hispanic population just stabilized KCMO neighborhoods from declining populations; and from what i've seen brought up property values through home renovations.

GRID wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:40 am Indy sucks compared to KCMO. I'm sort of surprised they don't get more mid and high rise construction downtown. It's just tons of 5 story wood framed apartments. The one thing they do have though is hotels. Their downtown probably has three times as many hotel rooms as KCMO does.

Is there a breakdown of where the housing permits are in KCMO? If not by census tract, at least by county?

Indy has sold itself, and somewhat successfully, as an amateur sports venue with their downtown dome and the presence of the NCAA. KC should have fought much harder than it did to retain the NCAA and been way more proactive even before the NCAA started looking for a new location. We were in the position to be where Indy is today in that regard but would not expend the capital (although I think their downtown dome would have trumped our suburban stadium with a rolling roof in terms of competition for events).

I have a feeling the NCAA would have returned to downtown KC from JoCo had they waited a few more years. They moved just prior to Downtown KC being revitalized. When KCMO was trying to lure them back and competing with Indy, they proposed an office building near the Hyatt in Crown Center. It was not a great proposal, but downtown at the time was just not in great shape.

Maybe the domed stadium in Indy would still give them an edge, but with the NCAA history in KC, I think they might have stayed if the downtown revival was further along.

daGOAT wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:21 am that's just STL trying to find a reason why it's not growing lol what's funny is one of my best friend's dads is mentioned in this article.

in all seriousness though Hispanic growth probably was a considerable amount of the extreme slow growth 90's and 00's, though numerous other immigrant groups came in as well, but in the last decade I would say growth has picked up due to downtown resurgence and a faster growing northland.

Yeah KC metro has been getting more domestic than international inmigration while STL has had significant outmigration. WyCo clearly gets many Latinx but KCMO more mixed.

Here's the 2020-2021 1-yr change. The domestic numbers for counties include shifts within metro. Domestic number by metro in last post means shifts in/outside metro.


All counties...
https://www2.census.gov/programs-survey ... -comp.xlsx

And here are details for the top losing counties...

GRID wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:13 am Post Dispatch says KC only growing faster mostly because of Hispanics. Not sure I buy that but it may be true.

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... 664ad.html

So their premise is that if not for Hispanics, KC would be dying as much as STL? Lol

The "Hispanic" quip is from a SLU PHD who specializes in "Demographics, urban sociology, Latino sociology, and immigration." https://www.slu.edu/arts-and-sciences/s ... nesimo.php

Not saying it is correct but it is not simply the "Post Dispatch" saying it, it comes in a quote from an academic researcher who probably has a decent basis for saying it.

Based on my understanding population growth in the US overall is being propped up by immigration a large portion of which is Hispanic. Without immigration and first gen immigrants having relatively bigger family sizes (this normalizes after just 1 gen) we'd be flat or shrinking.

True for US but KC metro typically gets a decent enough net domestic in-migration that is higher than international in-migration, most years anyway - especially the last 5 though early 2010s KC did have more international surge. WyCo does have a slightly higher birth rate % than rest of metro but overall KC metro birth rate is generally declining (shown in link). STL is losing a lot with domestic outmigration despite typcially more international inmigration than KC recently. They are struggling to keep people.

But we do need more immigrants to help stabilize the cities in general. Inner WyCo is much more functional thanks to immigrants. And needed given that US is breeding less as well.

Indy's Downtown when I visited didn't feel as decentralized as some Midwest metros. Most of their municipal assets were Downtown as far as I could see which helps the vibrancy. Their sports teams play there, the convention center is huge, their main university and hospitals are there. The community college is just on the edge. Theres a lot of state jobs being a capital. They have just moved most of their courts, police and justice functions just outside of Downtown which will hurt a bit, but theres also the likes of Elanco moving to a massive new campus from the suburbs. Theres some decent sized organisations HQ'd there. Eli-Lily, Anthem, Simon Property, the NCAA even Steak n Shake!

Add in the fact that its a reasonable cost of living and its doing okay. Its not Nashville, Charlotte or Austin but I felt like it was ticking along at least to me. In comparison to say St. Louis which feels like a ghost town IMO unless you head to a Blues or Cards game or go to the Arch during the day.