KCRag Forum

alejandro46 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:36 am +1 TLG. Old Parking garages and Faux Spanish architecture do not a historic district make. A lot of the buildings are just lazy and don't even fit with the half assed Spanish character when you look closer up. They may make for nice views from the expensive condos or hotels nearby, it's not like these buildings are something overly special or whos motif couldn't be easily replicated.

We need to eliminate the Plaza bowl heigth restriction. It is one of hte main problems. Raise the height limit to 4-5 floors if we must, but we need to get more residents in the actual plaza.

I have been saying that forever. Most of the retail buildings on the plaza are not that great. Nothing more interesting than what you would find at Zona Rosa. Certainly not worth all the save the plaza stop change BS. I mean most of the structures are just hiding parking.

Collectively the Plaza is a cool area because everything works together and it's an "urban" district, but because it's not evolving, it's working less and less.

Goonies wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:25 am Someone posted a pic of the Intercontinental on Reddit and it appears they are purposely letting their property go to shit so they can get TIF

This had been alleged for years now - it must be pretty bad by now. The last time I was there was five years ago and it was in poor condition even then.

Is good to see a broader conversation occurring with City officials that it's time for a Plaza change. The conversation needs to extend to (and include) the Plaza Purists who need to realize a need for change as well.

https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... -bowl.html

I think it's a pretty big deal that the Mayor & City Manager are understanding that we need to transform the Plaza with mixed-use instead of just lookng for another retail replacement for Nordstroms.


"Platt agreed, saying the onetime Nordstrom property ideally will support a mixed-use development, with experiential ground-floor retail below apartments, offices or both, all meant to maximize the number of people drawn to the Plaza.

"That is potentially the best site for mixed-use development on the Plaza and should be the maximum height (130 feet) allowed on that site," Platt said. "The Nordstrom project was aiming to actually go below the 45-foot minimum there, which is a little disappointing, frankly. That (site) should have a lot of activity, a lot of different types of uses."

Another key Plaza development site could be unlocked by relocating the Plaza Tennis Center courts northeast of Baltimore Avenue and Ward Parkway to a nearby rooftop, Lucas and Platt said."

The reason the Plaza is so beloved is pretty basic: Kansas City lacks walkable areas and it's one of the very few that's been allowed to succeed due to centralized ownership and investment (most others have been demolished or severely butchered). The faux historic facades, imported fountains, and 90s brick sidewalks just add another layer to the walkability that's been copied badly in other places like Zona Rosa and P&L.

The centralized management has ensured that there's plenty of content to keep locals and visitors coming -- even today.

The district's biggest failure is that its owners have treated it like an island in direct competition with downtown, rather than an integrated mixed use district.

Goonies wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:32 pm

earthling wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:57 pm Is good to see a broader conversation occurring with City officials that it's time for a Plaza change. The conversation needs to extend to (and include) the Plaza Purists who need to realize a need for change as well.

https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... -bowl.html

Was just about to post this. Good stuff!

Very good stuff. Also good that they seem to be calling Taubman out and hopefully working to ensure this isn’t just managed like a typical mall.

Lucas and City Manager Brian Platt have held meetings with Plaza co-owner Taubman Centers to address concerns with — and explore future opportunities for — the iconic shopping center.

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:11 pm)The faux historic facades, imported fountains, and 90s brick sidewalks just add another layer to the walkability that's been copied badly in other places like Zona Rosa and P&L.

How do any of those things apply to P&L? I’m not going to dock walkability points because a place doesn’t have a spanish fountain thrown in

Goonies wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:25 am Someone posted a pic of the Intercontinental on Reddit and it appears they are purposely letting their property go to shit so they can get TIF

Their CID was approved years ago for "renovation" purposes.

I think their CID is only for their parking garage. But still- not good

Even if the City and Plaza Purists get onboard for Plaza change, the Plaza owners Taubman/Simon and Macerich are in poor financial shape and may struggle to invest much into Plaza.

What is really needed is a change in ownership to a true experienced mixed-use urban developer with a diverse portfolio, not a mall operator unable to adapt to the times.

The financial Z-scores for both keep dropping, further into bankruptcy risk territory...
https://www.gurufocus.com/term/zscore/N ... e/Macerich
https://www.gurufocus.com/term/zscore/N ... erty-Group

That's my biggest fear, that even with the right ideas and city support in hand, the Plaza's owners aren't in financial condition to actually execute anything substantial. So it will limp along or slowly decline until it is put up on a block for a bankruptcy auction. I also struggle to think of who the right owner would be. Someone like PN Hoffman would be great but I don't think they operate outside the east coast.

Alright, here we go! One step closer to new ownership:

Plaza owners default on $300M loan in new sign of distress
https://www.kansascity.com/news/busines ... 47049.html

CrossroadsUrbanApts wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 9:48 am That's my biggest fear, that even with the right ideas and city support in hand, the Plaza's owners aren't in financial condition to actually execute anything substantial. So it will limp along or slowly decline until it is put up on a block for a bankruptcy auction. I also struggle to think of who the right owner would be. Someone like PN Hoffman would be great but I don't think they operate outside the east coast.

This is actually my biggest hope! If I were the mayor and city, I would be careful not to put any money behind the current ownership. I think it would be totally lost. Let the bankruptcy, or pre-bankruptcy sale happen. Let the buyer get a good deal with some money to put behind it and the Plaza will rebound. It will continue to flounder until that happens.

I’m telling you, Related Companies for the win. If a scout of theirs is looking at this website, the time is right to expand to KC and reimagine the Plaza. You did it in West Palm Beach and have been able to create successful developments in NYC, Chicago, Miami-area and other places, it can be done here.

Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:19 pm I’m telling you, Related Companies for the win. If a scout of theirs is looking at this website, the time is right to expand to KC and reimagine the Plaza. You did it in West Palm Beach and have been able to create successful developments in NYC, Chicago, Miami-area and other places, it can be done here.

What did they do in those cities?

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:39 pm

Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:19 pm I’m telling you, Related Companies for the win. If a scout of theirs is looking at this website, the time is right to expand to KC and reimagine the Plaza. You did it in West Palm Beach and have been able to create successful developments in NYC, Chicago, Miami-area and other places, it can be done here.

What did they do in those cities?

See the below post for West Palm Beach. In NYC, they did Hudson Yards, which is ground up and expensive but still apparently successful. Chicago and Miami, they have done residential towers.

Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:08 am I was walking around the Plaza this evening and was thinking it would be ideal to see the old Halls, Movie Theater, and Victoria's Secret buildings all torn down for 3-5 floor residential buildings with retail on the first floor. Where Nordstrom was supposed to go could be a good site for something in the 6-7 floor range. If people want to keep the general design character of the Plaza, then the new buildings could include it but at least make it high quality.

I was also thinking how, if the "Bowl" idea was trashed that this could end up being KC's Rosemary Square. Rosemary Square is a shopping and mixed-use thing in West Palm Beach that the Related Companies has been working on transforming. Existing buildings were overhauled, some were demolished, and some new residential and office high-rises are sprouting up, or planned to sprout, within the district. I also like how they went for curbless streets and a general pedestrian oriented feel.
https://www.thesquarewestpalm.com
https://rsmdesign.com/work/rosemary-square

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:54 pm

CrossroadsUrbanApts wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 9:48 am That's my biggest fear, that even with the right ideas and city support in hand, the Plaza's owners aren't in financial condition to actually execute anything substantial. So it will limp along or slowly decline until it is put up on a block for a bankruptcy auction. I also struggle to think of who the right owner would be. Someone like PN Hoffman would be great but I don't think they operate outside the east coast.

This is actually my biggest hope! If I were the mayor and city, I would be careful not to put any money behind the current ownership. I think it would be totally lost. Let the bankruptcy, or pre-bankruptcy sale happen. Let the buyer get a good deal with some money to put behind it and the Plaza will rebound. It will continue to flounder until that happens.

I'm on board with that. Let's pass the hat among the Rag posters and see if we can buy it off the courthouse steps.

CrossroadsUrbanApts wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:44 pm I'm on board with that. Let's pass the hat among the Rag posters and see if we can buy it off the courthouse steps.

It would sell for a TON! The problem is that right now they are seeing the district solely as retail/office. A developer building across all sectors knows that they could maximize wealth by investing in residential and larger developments on the edges. It will take lots of money but the return would be enormous. That’s why it sells within the next year. It brings more cash immediately instead of the other malls on their current portfolio.

Yes new buildings need to be developed into the mall/retail blocks with residential above.
But I'm not for eliminating curbs or pedestrian only streets. That's not needed. More residents and high rise residential. Hopefully the streetcar will bring it but nobody is jumping on that for some reason.

I'm disappointed that new projects have not been planned and started for Main St. Development moves like molasses in the wintertime around here. City leadership is to blame. Look at the Plaza Tennis Center. The city should have negotiated a mixed use project with a developer for that space when streetcar construction started. Still no leadership. We get tired, lazy, token, pussy politicians with no real world experience in business and the private sector. That's what's broke.

Karambit25 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:48 pm Yes new buildings need to be developed into the mall/retail blocks with residential above.
But I'm not for eliminating curbs or pedestrian only streets. That's not needed. More residents and high rise residential. Hopefully the streetcar will bring it but nobody is jumping on that for some reason.

I'm disappointed that new projects have not been planned and started for Main St. Development moves like molasses in the wintertime around here. City leadership is to blame. Look at the Plaza Tennis Center. The city should have negotiated a mixed use project with a developer for that space when streetcar construction started. Still no leadership. We get tired, lazy, token, pussy politicians with no real world experience in business and the private sector. That's what's broke.

At this point I'm just waiting for the elections in April hoping that shakes it up alot more. And just try to do what we can until then.

Someone more knowledgeable than me probably knows the answer to this: is there any incentives for local businesses on the Plaza? Reduced rent or anything like that?