KCRag Forum

TheLastGentleman wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:46 pm I think it's time the institution of the Plaza be abolished. The single ownership of the plaza has not produced any impressive results and threatens to stagnate itself. That said, I wouldn’t be too bothered by the Plaza continuing to lose prominence. It was founded explicitly as a competitor of downtown and a conduit into suburbia, so part of me says good riddance

If having multiple owners would make things magically better it already would be.

Aside from the core 12 or so blocks there’s dozens of owners. If they could do things better they already would have and would be taking business away.

shinatoo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:35 pm I've ridden that trail all the way out to Leads, I'm never the only one out there. Always multiple people on the brush creek trail. I know because I'm always freaked out someone is going to swerve and I'm going in. Or worse, I'm going to swerve someone in.

A few security cameras might help. It does feel a bit isolated but I do usually see others even at night. Cameras may give a feeling of safety

flyingember wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:36 pm

TheLastGentleman wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:46 pm I think it's time the institution of the Plaza be abolished. The single ownership of the plaza has not produced any impressive results and threatens to stagnate itself. That said, I wouldn’t be too bothered by the Plaza continuing to lose prominence. It was founded explicitly as a competitor of downtown and a conduit into suburbia, so part of me says good riddance

If having multiple owners would make things magically better it already would be.

Aside from the core 12 or so blocks there’s dozens of owners. If they could do things better they already would have and would be taking business away.

I flip flop on the ownership issue. Plaza owner has very little ability to rebuild which is what I think is required. Multiple owners would not change that political issue.

shinatoo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:35 pm I've ridden that trail all the way out to Leads, I'm never the only one out there. Always multiple people on the brush creek trail. I know because I'm always freaked out someone is going to swerve and I'm going in. Or worse, I'm going to swerve someone in.

When I say nobody, I mean relatively speaking. I know you guys always argue with me, but KC has very few people on bikes, or just not in cars in general. Central KCMO really doesn't even have that many cars. Most of the time the city feels sort of empty in more ways than one, but especially recreationally compared to most large cities. It is what it is. It's gotten better, but it's still very much the way it is. Unless you are in city market on Saturday or something, the city is just not a very busy place at all.

Even my kids always ask where are the people when we go to KC. If you think otherwise, that's fine, but that's just how the city feels to me and it always has.

I was just there this past summer. I rode with some friends from Waldo through the heart of KC to NKC and back and I think we saw 3-4 other cyclist the entire time. It's not nobody but may as well be. I'm impressed by some of the new things happening though, like the new river market pedestrian bridge and Ghillam road cyclepath. Things like that might start bringing more people out.

It's not always a bad thing. I often miss KC's ease of just driving around, can park anywhere you want etc. Makes exploring the city very easy.

normalthings wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:01 pm

flyingember wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:36 pm

TheLastGentleman wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:46 pm I think it's time the institution of the Plaza be abolished. The single ownership of the plaza has not produced any impressive results and threatens to stagnate itself. That said, I wouldn’t be too bothered by the Plaza continuing to lose prominence. It was founded explicitly as a competitor of downtown and a conduit into suburbia, so part of me says good riddance

If having multiple owners would make things magically better it already would be.

Aside from the core 12 or so blocks there’s dozens of owners. If they could do things better they already would have and would be taking business away.

I flip flop on the ownership issue. Plaza owner has very little ability to rebuild which is what I think is required. Multiple owners would not change that political issue.

But they do right now with that theater property and yet are only building a suburban single use department store that probably won't survive if it's even built. That piece of land is perfect to build a major mixed use (but mostly residential) higher density development to anchor and re-imagine that entire part of the plaza. And it wouldn't even cost that much since it has existing parking.

Then the plaza can do the same thing on the other end since the other end is also mostly a parking garage. Then redo Nichols as a destination indoor/outdoor restaurant and retail pedestrian priority corridor. (allow only very limited car access).

There are other places Nordstroms could go on the plaza without wasting what would be one hell of a space to build something really amazing.

Do you really think they would get support for anything above 3 floors?. I don't

normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:30 am Do you really think they would get support for anything above 3 floors?. I don't

No, not in the short term. Anecdotal, but it seems like the plaza is the safe urban place boomers go to live when their kids leave. I can only imagine the NIMBY response.

I don't think the neighborhood is going to age particularly well. And having a single owner increases risk in a pretty volatile area.

It's so focused on being a free to park shopping and dinning mall, I don't think there is any changing it until it collapses.

First step to revitalize the Plaza should be expanding the district by building on the tennis courts and connecting to the new streetcar stop.

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:03 am First step to revitalize the Plaza should be expanding the district by building on the tennis courts and connecting to the new streetcar stop.

I wouldn't make any long=term plans that involve playing tennis on that spot.

^Moorish building or two as gateway from streetcar to Plaza. Two or so TOD retail ground floor, CID or KCPD foot patrol office, next floor recreational, next floor indoor tennis, rooftop tennis.

A chicken and pickle would be awesome there, spanish styled of course

normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:30 am Do you really think they would get support for anything above 3 floors?. I don't

Start planting the seeds with neighborhood groups, Plaza owners to City policy makers about need for Plaza change. Plant suggestions in an engaging way that they start coming up with their own ideas.

earthling wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:06 am

normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:30 am Do you really think they would get support for anything above 3 floors?. I don't

Start planting the seeds with neighborhood groups, Plaza owners to City policy makers about need for Plaza change. Plant suggestions in an engaging way that they start coming up with their own ideas.

it's city park land. would take citywide vote to change it's use away from open park land.

"they" is the entire city.

GRID wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:44 pm

shinatoo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:35 pm I've ridden that trail all the way out to Leads, I'm never the only one out there. Always multiple people on the brush creek trail. I know because I'm always freaked out someone is going to swerve and I'm going in. Or worse, I'm going to swerve someone in.

I know you guys always argue with me,

That's a two-way street, my friend.

flyingember wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:26 am

earthling wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:06 am

normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:30 am Do you really think they would get support for anything above 3 floors?. I don't

Start planting the seeds with neighborhood groups, Plaza owners to City policy makers about need for Plaza change. Plant suggestions in an engaging way that they start coming up with their own ideas.

it's city park land. would take citywide vote to change it's use away from open park land.

"they" is the entire city.

We realize you look for every opportunity to nitpick us but you're on wrong topic. NT was talking about Plaza proper, not tennis courts.

WoodDraw wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:59 am

normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:30 am Do you really think they would get support for anything above 3 floors?. I don't

No, not in the short term. Anecdotal, but it seems like the plaza is the safe urban place boomers go to live when their kids leave. I can only imagine the NIMBY response.

I don't think the neighborhood is going to age particularly well. And having a single owner increases risk in a pretty volatile area.

It's so focused on being a free to park shopping and dinning mall, I don't think there is any changing it until it collapses.

Agree about demographics heading that way and it might have to go through harder times in order to drive change, or owners sell to a real urban mixed-use player who drive the change. Planting ideas that stir conversation with neighborhood about dealing with the staleness might also eventually create some action as well. Start with a range of ideas that seek feedback, not specific proposals that may create knee jerk reactions.

earthling wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:06 am

normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:30 am Do you really think they would get support for anything above 3 floors?. I don't

Start planting the seeds with neighborhood groups, Plaza owners to City policy makers about need for Plaza change. Plant suggestions in an engaging way that they start coming up with their own ideas.

The heyday of "Save the Plaza" hysteria was over 10 years ago and most of the loudest people were the oldest ones. There will be a change in attitude about development and good leadership from the majority owners would help. It will change but as GRID says, probably not until there's a catastrophic collapse. On the other hand, there is a lot of money to be made and that can be a powerful motivator.

TrolliKC wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:26 am A chicken and pickle would be awesome there, spanish styled of course

pollo y pepinillo!

taxi wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:48 am

earthling wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:06 am

normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:30 am Do you really think they would get support for anything above 3 floors?. I don't

Start planting the seeds with neighborhood groups, Plaza owners to City policy makers about need for Plaza change. Plant suggestions in an engaging way that they start coming up with their own ideas.

The heyday of "Save the Plaza" hysteria was over 10 years ago and most of the loudest people were the oldest ones. There will be a change in attitude about development and good leadership from the majority owners would help. It will change but as GRID says, probably not until there's a catastrophic collapse. On the other hand, there is a lot of money to be made and that can be a powerful motivator.

^Hopefully you're right about first part, would also help if Plaza sells to a new owner highly experienced with urban mixed use rather than mostly a mall operator.

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:08 am

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:03 am First step to revitalize the Plaza should be expanding the district by building on the tennis courts and connecting to the new streetcar stop.

I wouldn't make any long=term plans that involve playing tennis on that spot.

I was going to say somehow build a transit oriented development on the tennis courts, but I thought that was sacred ground.

If there really are plans to do something with that, then that makes doing something better with the theater site and redoing Nichols as more of a pedestrian promenade with cycle tracks from the streetcar a no brainer.

I don't get why there would be so many against this. The plaza desperately needs to be modernized. It could return to being one of the best places to live and visit in all of KC and the entire midwest if some of this is done. The plaza has been dying for years, despite all the surrounding growth. It makes no sense. The only reason it's dying is because owners and the KC people won't let the Plaza evolve and change.