Ferguson, Missouri

[WSPanic]

A local justice system broken enough to spark rioting can't hold one of its own accountable?

Guess that depends on one's viewpoint, doesn't it? Would the results last night have been any different if there was a trial and Wilson was not convicted or there was a hung jury? For some there would only be justice if Wilson had gone to trial and found guilty, anything else would not be acceptable.

I can picture a trial now. A dream team of defense lawyers outclassing prosecutors, much like the OJ trial. Witnesses called by the prosecutors and their testimony picked apart by the defense especially when the testimony conflicts with other witnesses and the physical evidence.

Burden of proof greater in a court trial than in grand jury proceedings. In a grand jury it would take only 9 votes out of 12 for an indictment but in a court trial all 12 would have to agree to convict.

Was Justice served? Again, what was one looking for? Was Wilson held accountable for his actions? If you wanted a conviction then no.

In this case it may not have mattered, since rioting had already occurred and there was a group of people who were probably going to riot regardless of what happened (save a guilty verdict, which wasn't going to happen) but I think that a difference between this case and Zimmerman is that in the Zimmerman case, as badly prosecuted as it was, and as bad a job as the police did in collecting and preserving evidence, we were able to watch things play out in court. Had we been able to watch this play out in court, and had it become clear (as I think it is) that there is not enough conclusive evidence either way to convict, there is a possibility that things would have simmered down.

I agree with this. If the prosecutor wanted to indict the guy, he should have just done it. Instead, he tried the case in the front of a grand jury without the hindrance of a defense or the added pressure of media coverage. That's not what a grand jury is for.

A trial would have been a circus, for sure. But, that's the system. Trust the process [/DaytonMoore].

[phuqueue]

Conflicting evidence is something for a (petit) jury to sort out as the finder of fact in a real trial, not a convenient excuse not to go to trial in the first place.

Something interesting from your fivethirtyeight article:

The third possible explanation is more benign. Ordinarily, prosecutors only bring a case if they think they can get an indictment. But in high-profile cases such as police shootings, they may feel public pressure to bring charges even if they think they have a weak case.

“The prosecutor in this case didn’t really have a choice about whether he would bring this to a grand jury,” Ben Trachtenberg, a University of Missouri law professor, said of the Brown case. “It’s almost impossible to imagine a prosecutor saying the evidence is so scanty that I’m not even going to bring this before a grand jury.”

The explanations aren’t mutually exclusive. It’s possible, for example, that the evidence against Wilson was relatively weak, but that jurors were also more likely than normal to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, there are the witness statements but there is also the physical evidence that needs to be considered, which in this case might be very weak or actually supports Wilson. And weak evidence is a good excuse not to go to trial. Given the physical evidence I wonder how many of those "eye witnesses" would actually be called as a witness at a trial? And if called how would they stand up under defense questioning? CNN has an interesting video interview with Piaget Crenshaw on their website. She would definitely need some serious prep if she was called to the stand.

We'll never know, since McCulloch used the grand jury as his own private "trial" without any of the pesky rules or procedures of the real deal to get in his way. Without even getting into what the other witnesses would say, a real, impartial prosecutor could have had a field day just forcing Wilson to actually explain himself. To wit: http://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/11/25/72 ... grand-jury
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... ml?hpid=z1

The grand jury obviously made its decision but that doesn't mean it's now "known" that this or that happened.

Which could apply both ways about what is "known". But, yes, the grand jury did make its decision, a decision which, even with a lower standard of proof that a court trial has, basically said there isn't enough to bring this to trial.

That's a very generous reading of what this decision "says."

[im2kull]

A local justice system broken enough to spark rioting can't hold one of its own accountable? Shocking. Isn't this how every movie about Mississippi in the 1930's begins?

He was held accountable. They had a hearing (Which they didn't even have to have..) in which they determined that his use of force was justified. I suggest you read the news and get the actual facts from the source, before believing in all the political racist rhetoric being spewed.

[im2kull]

One thing that I am curious about re: riots in Ferguson - why, if the idea is to shock, provoke, and potentially effect change, would you want to tear down your own community, versus the actual seats of power in STL?

No one in STL gives a shit about "anything" in North County, and never will. But you could make a pretty good scene burning Clayton businesses to the ground, parading through the streets of Ladue (which have been and will remain closed to these folks for generations), or at the least making STL County courthouse and admin buildings the dominant point of protest. That is the county seat, after all, the hub of the region. And more importantly, mid-county is the hub of privileged, generational wealth, "private places", the hierarchy of expensive college prep schools and clubs; many of the things that make STL seem insular and frankly segregated. Why not start there if you want to be noticed?

At any rate, destroying your own forgotten community seems counterproductive no matter how you slice it.

Logic is not these idiots strongpoint. Clearly.

[im2kull]

I agree, it's the victim's fault.

Before you decide to "Victim" blame, you need to know who the victim actually is..

Here's a hint: It's not always the dead person.

[rxlexi]

I'll be heading into STL for Thanksgiving and weekend, and the more I think about this the more I'm fascinated by the unique qualities of that metro that may have helped give rise to this situation. Many (most? all?) American cities with sizable AA populations and especially those in the rust belt are heavily segregated, particularly with regard to access to quality public education. KC is certainly no exception.

And many have seen similar if less high-profile racial incidents (the recent shooting of the young kid in Cleveland, for example). But outside Cincy in the early 2000's, none have blown up in quite the same way. Is it a coincidence that Cincy and STL share similar old-money stereotypes?

There is a certain weight to the geography of wealth in STL, and the astounding depth and volume of that wealth for a mid-size city, that is rather unique. The importance of the high-school question, the importance of the address in a metro with many small, separate cities. There may be a more dramatic sense of being an "outsider" in a place like Ferguson?

[warwickland]

One thing that I am curious about re: riots in Ferguson - why, if the idea is to shock, provoke, and potentially effect change, would you want to tear down your own community, versus the actual seats of power in STL?

No one in STL gives a shit about "anything" in North County, and never will. But you could make a pretty good scene burning Clayton businesses to the ground, parading through the streets of Ladue (which have been and will remain closed to these folks for generations), or at the least making STL County courthouse and admin buildings the dominant point of protest. That is the county seat, after all, the hub of the region. And more importantly, mid-county is the hub of privileged, generational wealth, "private places", the hierarchy of expensive college prep schools and clubs; many of the things that make STL seem insular and frankly segregated. Why not start there if you want to be noticed?

At any rate, destroying your own forgotten community seems counterproductive no matter how you slice it.

There were definitely protests in Clayton and big traffic shutdowns, but that was all overshadowed by the north county mess and to a lesser extent south grand. Opportunists would not show up in Clayton for (various) obvious reasons. The opportunists converged on ferguson/dellwood from all over. Ferguson didn't trash itself, exactly, it has a sizable black middle class, too, that is now traumatized.

Second, there is a sizable middle class white population that considers north county their "homeland," even myself. There is still a major middle class presence in north county, unlike north city. it's also the home of the black middle class (which is on record as being very upset/impacted with/by the looting) there are vast swaths (example, the upper middle class areas of spanish lake/unincorporated far north county), hazelwood, florissant, etc that are immaculately maintained and make areas like jeffco look like appalachia. That middle class catholic/soccer sub-culture that migrated into st. charles county. as an aside, st. charles county is very much an extension of north county. people seemed to be far more riled up in st. charles, people carrying guns outside, etc, than for instance mid-county areas and south city (except for south grand area).

sorry for the disjointed response. i'm failing at multitasking, here.

[warwickland]

I'll be heading into STL for Thanksgiving and weekend, and the more I think about this the more I'm fascinated by the unique qualities of that metro that may have helped give rise to this situation. Many (most? all?) American cities with sizable AA populations and especially those in the rust belt are heavily segregated, particularly with regard to access to quality public education. KC is certainly no exception.

And many have seen similar if less high-profile racial incidents (the recent shooting of the young kid in Cleveland, for example). But outside Cincy in the early 2000's, none have blown up in quite the same way. Is it a coincidence that Cincy and STL share similar old-money stereotypes?

There is a certain weight to the geography of wealth in STL, and the astounding depth and volume of that wealth for a mid-size city, that is rather unique. The importance of the high-school question, the importance of the address in a metro with many small, separate cities. There may be a more dramatic sense of being an "outsider" in a place like Ferguson?

here's a brief/limited history of a part of north county:
http://www.blackjackfire.org/history.shtml

out of curiousity, what quarter of st. louis are you traveling to? will you be using the mark twain expressway? or perhaps the daniel boone, ozark, or dixie? yes they tried naming the highways chicago style but it didn't stick.

[AllThingsKC]

If you can't trust
liberal people...
in a liberal city...
in a liberal county....
with a liberal District Attorney...
and a liberal Prosecuting Attorney....
in a state with a liberal governor....
during an investigation overseen by a liberal Attorney General...
sent by a liberal president....

THEN WHO CAN YOU TRUST?

[warwickland]

If you can't trust
liberal people...
in a liberal city...
in a liberal county....
with a liberal District Attorney...
and a liberal Prosecuting Attorney....
in a state with a liberal governor....
during an investigation overseen by a liberal Attorney General...
sent by a liberal president....

THEN WHO CAN YOU TRUST?

wat

[AllThingsKC]

There have been concerns that the police chief or DA or PA have mishandled the investigation process due to possible corruption.

I don't know what they could have done differently (better) when they involve everyone with authority over the situation in the investigation, from the police chief to the president.

[rxlexi]

out of curiousity, what quarter of st. louis are you traveling to? will you be using the mark twain expressway? or perhaps the daniel boone, ozark, or dixie? yes they tried naming the highways chicago style but it didn't stick.

I will be travelling the Daniel Boone at some point lol. I'm heading into Ballwin/Chesterfield and Creve Couer, with nightlife stops in the City (showing off some favorite spots to family from KC - namely my brother and his GF who haven't seen much of urban STL).

I apologize for my over-generalization of North County, but I base my opinion of the area on my somewhat limited travels though it, and the general feelings towards it that I pick up from St. Louisans I spend time around. I have been literally laughed at for suggesting that parts of NoCo might have anything at all to offer (I am partial to the incredible hidden baby Clayton-ness of Pasadena Hills). Within the Clayton to Wildwood corridor, it seems to exist as the home of the airport, the "former" home of tons of St. Charles peeps, and little else.

[phuqueue]

I agree, it's the victim's fault.

Before you decide to "Victim" blame, you need to know who the victim actually is..

Here's a hint: It's not always the dead person.

You're right, poor Darren Wilson had, as is ☆☆☆common knowledge☆☆☆, all those broken bones in his face



Poor guy!!! It was totally right for him to put at least six bullets in Mike Brown for that and we need to be careful about who we consider the real victim!

All hail the mighty Police, our valiant protectors against the Black Menace!

If you can't trust
liberal people...
in a liberal city...
in a liberal county....
with a liberal District Attorney...
and a liberal Prosecuting Attorney....
in a state with a liberal governor....
during an investigation overseen by a liberal Attorney General...
sent by a liberal president....

THEN WHO CAN YOU TRUST?

[Edit ehhhhhhh this was a truly horrible piece of bullshit post but my response was basically straight up ad hominem so nevermind]

[warwickland]

out of curiousity, what quarter of st. louis are you traveling to? will you be using the mark twain expressway? or perhaps the daniel boone, ozark, or dixie? yes they tried naming the highways chicago style but it didn't stick.

I will be travelling the Daniel Boone at some point lol. I'm heading into Ballwin/Chesterfield and Creve Couer, with nightlife stops in the City (showing off some favorite spots to family from KC - namely my brother and his GF who haven't seen much of urban STL).

ok. well, that sucks. manchester road is THE WORST THING EVER.

since you will be with suburban folks, perhaps check out the new http://www.sideprojectbrewing.com/
in maplewood, to ease them into the urban core, lol.

as a random aside, speaking of the geography of st. louis, don't forget the metro east (where i will be spending much of thanksgiving). here's a random quirk of eastside geography: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=39+Hillt ... -4.81&z=16

that is east st. louis proper...

[rxlexi]

sorry for the disjointed response. i'm failing at multitasking, here.

Same. A lot of thoughts come to mind in a situation like this. Mine primarily focus on the city, rather than the actual MB event, interestingly. I can see both sides of the actual event, but am fascinated by the class dynamics in this and other cities, and what kind of conversation will (or, likely, won't) come about because of this.

[earthling]

If you can't trust
liberal people...
in a liberal city...
in a liberal county....
with a liberal District Attorney...
and a liberal Prosecuting Attorney....
in a state with a liberal governor....
during an investigation overseen by a liberal Attorney General...
sent by a liberal president....

THEN WHO CAN YOU TRUST?

I don't trust people who make polarizing comments and promote a polarizing wedge. They are a key part of the problem, on both sides of fence.

[rxlexi]

as a random aside, speaking of the geography of st. louis, don't forget the metro east

Getting off topic, but spent a beautiful fall night at a private winery/party barn/lakehouse property in Jerseyville, not far from Alton, a few months ago. Just an amazing property, owned as a summer house/gathering spot by a family with their primary house in Kirkwood. The river road/Alton and the Mississippi up there was gorgeous and so very midwestern. A part of STL I had never seen.

[loftguy]

I don't trust people who make polarizing comments and promote a polarizing wedge. They are a key part of the problem, on both sides of fence.

Nice wrap to this chapter.

Happy Thanksgiving all...

[warwickland]

as a random aside, speaking of the geography of st. louis, don't forget the metro east

Getting off topic, but spent a beautiful fall night at a private winery/party barn/lakehouse property in Jerseyville, not far from Alton, a few months ago. Just an amazing property, owned as a summer house/gathering spot by a family with their primary house in Kirkwood. The river road/Alton and the Mississippi up there was gorgeous and so very midwestern. A part of STL I had never seen.

funny, i'm actually headed to that exact area to a property just outside of alton in that wooded, rolling area just north of the river. sometimes we go out in old alton or grafton or drink beer in a boat on the mississippi, or have bonfires. it's an insanely lovely, but close enough area that almost feels great lakes/door county like, or something (can't quite put a finger on it) i'm guessing we havent unknowingly met or something...haha!

[chrizow]

we'll be kicking it in wildwood for thanksgiving. shit's going to get live. there is a bar near my brother's house that is just called BAR.