Regional Transit Coordination

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normalthings
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by normalthings »

When will we get an update?
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by DaveKCMO »

normalthings wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:30 pm When will we get an update?
Hopefully soon. Still working on the consensus thing.

I can tell you that the two streetcar extensions are in there, plus a whole lot of bus service (basically boosting everything that exists and filling in gaps from SmartMoves) to address job access*.

*Streetcar doesn't address job access because you usually just replace a corridor that already exists, with slightly improves frequency.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by normalthings »

Would have hoped for more than just the two small lines but I guess it’s better than nothing.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by alejandro46 »

Although I would like to better understand how this will be pitched and to whom within the region, the fact that KC could be getting two expansion lines underway just as we are about to lay the tracks for the largest expansion to date is a monumental achievement. This is real life, not Sim City, and there is intense competition for resources and time. Extensions to KUMed and NKC drive development and would set the ultimate groundwork for future expansions beyond (Rock Island, Metro North/KCI) while also focusing on connected to increased frequency of the bus system to address getting people to work can't or don't want to drive.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by AlkaliAxel »

alejandro46 wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:11 am Although I would like to better understand how this will be pitched and to whom within the region, the fact that KC could be getting two expansion lines underway just as we are about to lay the tracks for the largest expansion to date is a monumental achievement. This is real life, not Sim City, and there is intense competition for resources and time. Extensions to KUMed and NKC drive development and would set the ultimate groundwork for future expansions beyond (Rock Island, Metro North/KCI) while also focusing on connected to increased frequency of the bus system to address getting people to work can't or don't want to drive.
Agreed. We might be the first of the "2010s Class" of cities (and there were many) who brought in streetcar to go E-W with it. That's really saying something.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:32 am
alejandro46 wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:11 am Although I would like to better understand how this will be pitched and to whom within the region, the fact that KC could be getting two expansion lines underway just as we are about to lay the tracks for the largest expansion to date is a monumental achievement. This is real life, not Sim City, and there is intense competition for resources and time. Extensions to KUMed and NKC drive development and would set the ultimate groundwork for future expansions beyond (Rock Island, Metro North/KCI) while also focusing on connected to increased frequency of the bus system to address getting people to work can't or don't want to drive.
Agreed. We might be the first of the "2010s Class" of cities (and there were many) who brought in streetcar to go E-W with it. That's really saying something.
I mean, even expanding from the initial corridor isn’t super common among the other systems. Hasn’t there only been a couple with work started?
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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OneRide KC web page removed
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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normalthings wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:18 am OneRide KC web page removed
It will return.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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I tried out the Denver RTD (commuter rail) this weekend and there are some problems I noticed with it that I think would be devastating here in KC

1.) The train has way too many stops, and is therefore stopping way too often. You barely get moving and then it stops again. So in total, it took 10 minutes to drive to the train station, then an HOUR sitting on it. So, then another hour on the way back, and another 10 mins to drive back home.

It would've taken just 30 mins in a car to drive from this suburb to Denver, instead of the 70 min train ride.

My point here is that if this were KC- absolutely nobody would be taking the train. Especially here where the highways will let you get to downtown in like 20 mins. There's no way people in KC will opt to take a long train ride when they can drive in a big fraction of that.

If you were to do a commuter rail like this in KC, you'd have to move that train a hell of alot faster than the RTD in Denver. Probably alot fewer stops.

2.) Hardly anyone was riding on the rail. I was the only person in one of the train cars for a good while. They also have alot of homeless people taking up swaths of the train. I think the combination of homeless people riding and how slow takes away alot of the potential ridership.


After seeing this, it actually made me feel more value in the streetcar for KC- I think we *do* have a big need to connect people around the urban core and connect places in the urban core. However, if the suburban rail is gonna be as slow as Denver- then people here won't ride it. Therefore I don't see the need to spend $1 bil on a suburban rail project in which KC suburbanites will choose the car over the rail. You'd need some super quick rail with very few stops. Few stops = less development so what's even the point. Go all in on urban core tracks like streetcar. The car is just too convenient for people in KC suburbs to spend this much on rail.
Last edited by AlkaliAxel on Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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Any KC light rail would be way slower than Denver's. Nearly all of Denver's LRT is in dedicated ROW. KC wants to run them down streets all the way to places like KCI and Independence. A streetcar running in mixed traffic would be even worse. Just the thought of taking a streetcar to KCI gives me anxiety.

This is why I say the only place LRT would work in KC is from downtown to the east suburbs. Because you can build it in a dedicated ROW, serve the stadiums, and the east suburbs have a higher percentage of downtown commuters than other areas and I-70 is more congested and you would pass through and serve the most transit dependent parts of the city.

However, you are correct. KC really just doesn't have the density or traffic congestion and has WAY too much easily available parking that is cheap to free.

That's why just concentrating on the streetcar is fine. It scales to the urban environment much better than LRT does. Streetcars/trams is for those that live in the urban core or are visiting and want to move around the urban core and that's what KC needs way more than another option to get people from the suburbs to downtown.

Most of KC's freeways are still very old and dated. Driving through KC on the interstate system outside of the south loop of 435 is like going back in time compared to most metro areas. KC has so many lane miles of interstate that it has not been able to even keep them up to date. So having a modern reginal "mass" transit system is just not likely.

Would be nice if the streetcars were in more robust infrastructure (center running, larger stations, real dedicated ROW and signal priority etc), but you have to take what you can get. KCMO needs to find ways to expand the center city tram system which will help continue the urban revival. That's all KC should care about at this point. That and build up the bus system which seems tiny for the size of KC. I grew up riding the buses in KCMO and it seems like there are about 1/3 the buses that there were when I used the system. I mean you can drive up and down main from downtown to the plaza and you might see one or two buses. In the 90's you would see many more.
Last edited by GRID on Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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My family whom I was visiting in the Denver burbs said they don't use the rail for the exact reasons mentioned above. Even the Denver traffic doesn't justify waiting that long on a train when a car get you downtown so quickly.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by AlkaliAxel »

GRID wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:24 pm Would be nice if the streetcars were in more robust infrastructure (center running, larger stations, real dedicated ROW and signal priority etc), but you have to take what you can get.
Funny enough, Tom Gerend was talking about this exact thing today.

https://twitter.com/TomGerend/status/14 ... Jl_t1tB1Kg

https://twitter.com/TomGerend/status/14 ... Jl_t1tB1Kg

The argument on twitter was basically that this past year we've done completely fine on congestion with a single land traffic for cars while there was construction...so why not just keep is single lane for cars and give the streetcar and BRT its own dedicated lane? There is some smoke on the idea now finally, atleast.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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AlkaliAxel wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:30 pm My family whom I was visiting in the Denver burbs said they don't use the rail for the exact reasons mentioned above. Even the Denver traffic doesn't justify waiting that long on a train when a car get you downtown so quickly.
That really applies to almost every American city, but considering Denver has much worse traffic, a much larger and more congested downtown and one of the best transit systems in the country and it still a very small percent of its population that uses transit, that doesn't bode well for KC having successful light rail.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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AlkaliAxel wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:33 pm
GRID wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:24 pm Would be nice if the streetcars were in more robust infrastructure (center running, larger stations, real dedicated ROW and signal priority etc), but you have to take what you can get.
Funny enough, Tom Gerend was talking about this exact thing today.

https://twitter.com/TomGerend/status/14 ... Jl_t1tB1Kg

https://twitter.com/TomGerend/status/14 ... Jl_t1tB1Kg

The argument on twitter was basically that this past year we've done completely fine on congestion with a single land traffic for cars while there was construction...so why not just keep is single lane for cars and give the streetcar and BRT its own dedicated lane? There is some smoke on the idea now finally, atleast.
Exactly. They could have made Main Street a real destination corridor by rebuilding the street with the streetcar being the priority. Wider sidewalks, landscaping, bike lanes, dedicated ROW, larger stations and just overall more walkable and inviting. Instead, it runs like a bus through midtown. Outside the stations (of which most look like bus stops), not much will change along Main. Lots of cars parked, turn lanes etc.

I think the way they are doing it on Main would be fine for secondary streetcar routes like down Troost or Linwood, but Main should have been treated more like the "transit spine" people keep saying it will be.

They are doing it right south of 47th though. The plaza station is more substantial and it's in dedicated row.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by beautyfromashes »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:33 pm Funny enough, Tom Gerend was talking about this exact thing today.

https://twitter.com/TomGerend/status/14 ... Jl_t1tB1Kg

https://twitter.com/TomGerend/status/14 ... Jl_t1tB1Kg

The argument on twitter was basically that this past year we've done completely fine on congestion with a single land traffic for cars while there was construction...so why not just keep is single lane for cars and give the streetcar and BRT its own dedicated lane? There is some smoke on the idea now finally, atleast.
I'm just hoping that with the extension they don't feel the need to stop at every stop. That would speed things up almost as much as dedicated lanes. People in Kansas City need to understand they idea of hitting the button to stop.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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GRID wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:36 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:30 pm My family whom I was visiting in the Denver burbs said they don't use the rail for the exact reasons mentioned above. Even the Denver traffic doesn't justify waiting that long on a train when a car get you downtown so quickly.
That really applies to almost every American city, but considering Denver has much worse traffic, a much larger and more congested downtown and one of the best transit systems in the country and it still a very small percent of its population that uses transit, that doesn't bode well for KC having successful light rail.
If they want to spend $1 bil on project that will yield real results, I can name you better ones.

I’d much much rather use that sum on going all in on north loop removal.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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AlkaliAxel wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:16 pm If they want to spend $1 bil on project that will yield real results, I can name you better ones.

I’d much much rather use that sum on going all in on north loop removal.
Agree. The north loop is more embarrassing than anything else about downtown. I still don't understand the infatuation with covering 670 over eliminating the north loop. The difference in land savings and connectivity is infinitely better.

It's already starting to fill in west of Grand. Not a big deal.
https://goo.gl/maps/DVz1YeXMr5rai1yU6

An apocalypse.
https://goo.gl/maps/Qu3mkJjurt9hfGWR9
Last edited by Karambit25 on Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by normalthings »

Karambit25 wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:42 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:16 pm If they want to spend $1 bil on project that will yield real results, I can name you better ones.

I’d much much rather use that sum on going all in on north loop removal.
Agree. The north loop is more embarrassing than anything else about downtown. I still don't understand the infatuation with covering 670 over eliminating the north loop. The difference in land savings and connectivity is infinitely better.
These are apples and oranges projects.

$150 million for a highway cap or hundreds of millions or $1 billion+ to rework East/West/South loop and close the NorthLoop.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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normalthings wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:44 pm These are apples and oranges projects.

$150 million for a highway cap or hundreds of millions or $1 billion+ to rework East/West/South loop and close the NorthLoop.
I understand the difference in cost. There's no real payoff for capping 670. Let the market manage that with attached retail like in Columbus. I'm only pointing out that reclaiming roughly 30 acres of land and eliminating a 1/2 mile eyesore is the single largest problem regarding connectivity in downtown.

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ipd/images/pro ... tation.jpg
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by GRID »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:16 pm
GRID wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:36 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:30 pm My family whom I was visiting in the Denver burbs said they don't use the rail for the exact reasons mentioned above. Even the Denver traffic doesn't justify waiting that long on a train when a car get you downtown so quickly.
That really applies to almost every American city, but considering Denver has much worse traffic, a much larger and more congested downtown and one of the best transit systems in the country and it still a very small percent of its population that uses transit, that doesn't bode well for KC having successful light rail.
If they want to spend $1 bil on project that will yield real results, I can name you better ones.

I’d much much rather use that sum on going all in on north loop removal.
Why is everything "not if it cost us the north loop project" with you? They literally have nothing in common and are probably at least a decade apart in the timeline, have different funding sources etc. Same with the Broadway Bridge.

And it would not have cost an additional billion. Maybe 75 million more give or take 25 million. I mean, the main work on Main Street is the relocation and rebuilding of underground utilities. That probably cost more than laying the actual track. You have Main Street totally tore up so it would have been pretty easy to do a total rebuild of the surface.

The cost to run the track down the center and actually rebuild Main Street with a different layout/sidewalks etc rather than patch it back up after utility work is done would not have been crazy expensive. The problem is that the residents and businesses along the corridor would have thrown a fit if they lost on street parking, turn lanes and a possibly even a driving lane. But as you said, Main St doesn't even need to be four lanes. High speed through traffic has plenty of other options on other under utilized north south streets.

If those streetcars had gone down the center of Main in a dedicated ROW, now you have a full blown transit spine that could even be easily upgraded to larger platforms etc if needed.

It's not going to change now. Ever. Curb running is a done deal. Just saying, it would have been better, but would have required a lot more education of the residents and businesses that less cars would have been better for them.
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