Regional Transit Coordination

[dukuboy1]

I'm glad these 2 events will be generating funding but also forcing conversations to be had about how to provide transit with a METRO wide focus, not just pet project areas, etc. I think that part of it is the most encouraging. These events are ones that will impact the entire Metro for sure, some parts more than others. But hosting a National event like the NFL draft and 3 yrs later a world wide event in the World Cup means now is the time for big picture thinking and focus on the can do spirit of KC.

[TheUrbanRoo]

I'm glad these 2 events will be generating funding but also forcing conversations to be had about how to provide transit with a METRO wide focus, not just pet project areas, etc. I think that part of it is the most encouraging. These events are ones that will impact the entire Metro for sure, some parts more than others. But hosting a National event like the NFL draft and 3 yrs later a world wide event in the World Cup means now is the time for big picture thinking and focus on the can do spirit of KC.

The big picture item needs to be north loop instead of metro-wide transit.

I think the south loop completion is gonna accelerate that. Talks need to start now though with the roadblock people. We're not a city that lives to serve the suburbs anymore -- given the national events we're bringing in -- and that needs to be made clear to them that we're building a real city now.

[SilentSpades24]

However, letting your bus system become so underfunded is just ridiculous. KC has been talking about doing something regional now for so long that what's the point of even discussing it anymore? The bus system is the backbone of nearly every city's transit system and KC's bus system is just not where it should be. I see more buses in ten minutes in Downtown Silver Spring, Maryland than I do all day in Downtown KC.

Why does it take decades for a metro area to fund a regional transit system?
[/quote]

It's underfunded and poorly designed because our metro is so damn fragmented. We have FOUR TRANSIT OPERATORS in the metro area.

Hell, in my lifetime, the three (3) system redesigns only every included KCMO / Northland routes. Never included KCK, Independence, or JoCo services. It's astonishing that the RideKC Next changes (That apparently have been shelved, despite most of the stops and even destination signage being created) didn't even take into account JoCo or KCK services. How are we supposed to have a halfway functioning transit system when one part has been redesigned multiple times and other parts haven't changed in 30 years?

Having four operators, over seven counties, and 50+ municipalities is a recipe for disaster that frankly, regional funding won't even help with. Until transit is under one operator, in charge of planning, pushing for regional funding, regional planning, the system is never going to work.

At this point, all I want is service to get back to the levels it was at pre-COVID (I know driver shortage has put a damper on that).

[SilentSpades24]

Yeah. KC honestly has no business building any additional rail till they get the bus system back to respectable again. I still don't get the push for rail to the TSC. Especially along the routes being discussed. If you are going to build rail, do it right. Otherwise, just bring back the park and ride bus system the stadiums had in the 90's. With 200 buses used for the Chiefs Express alone, they moved way WAY more people more than any trolley on 39th ever will.

Then again, KCATA was able to run hundreds of buses to the stadium and maintain a much larger bus system than it has now at the same time. Does KCMO even have the 300-400 buses it once had anymore? Seems like it's down to way under 200 buses on the streets just from my gut feeling when in town.

It's like Main Street. Spend hundreds of millions of dollars and tear up Main Street for years all for a curb running mixed traffic line? If you are going to be that invasive, build it center running so it can function more like light rail in the future. Like usual though, it's better than nothing.

Stadium service got outlawed under the Bush Administration to let private services take it over (notice how they never did).

I think KCATA only has like, 250 buses at most anymore, maybe less. JoCo has an additional 40-60.

[alejandro46]

The city of KC doesn't give a F about the Metro. They swiped $20m from KCATA for streetlight repairs. It is merely an afterthought or a way to funnel federal dollars. Sure, plenty of other cities don't support it enough and KC gets the majority of service, but it's definitely an afterthought.

[GRID]

However, letting your bus system become so underfunded is just ridiculous. KC has been talking about doing something regional now for so long that what's the point of even discussing it anymore? The bus system is the backbone of nearly every city's transit system and KC's bus system is just not where it should be. I see more buses in ten minutes in Downtown Silver Spring, Maryland than I do all day in Downtown KC.

Why does it take decades for a metro area to fund a regional transit system?

It's underfunded and poorly designed because our metro is so damn fragmented. We have FOUR TRANSIT OPERATORS in the metro area.

Hell, in my lifetime, the three (3) system redesigns only every included KCMO / Northland routes. Never included KCK, Independence, or JoCo services. It's astonishing that the RideKC Next changes (That apparently have been shelved, despite most of the stops and even destination signage being created) didn't even take into account JoCo or KCK services. How are we supposed to have a halfway functioning transit system when one part has been redesigned multiple times and other parts haven't changed in 30 years?

Having four operators, over seven counties, and 50+ municipalities is a recipe for disaster that frankly, regional funding won't even help with. Until transit is under one operator, in charge of planning, pushing for regional funding, regional planning, the system is never going to work.

At this point, all I want is service to get back to the levels it was at pre-COVID (I know driver shortage has put a damper on that).

And on top of all that, Missouri is one of the only states in the country that does not have dedicated funding for transit.

In metro KC, the ATA has to beg any city that has metro bus service to contribute. So this is why there is no fixed route bus services in in most of the MO side suburbs and the few express route that exist are barely funded by the cities themselves every year. When I lived in Blue Springs and the Blue Springs express had 20 standing passengers on every bus, it was still very difficult to keep the route funded every year.

Then on top of that, you have the whole KS side doing it's own thing like you mentioned. Rebranding everything didn't do shit.

And it's not just a regional thing. City bus service in central KCMO is not that great and once the Main Street Max is gone, there won't be hardly any decent routes in the city other than Troost and Prospect and like I have said, those are nothing special. Just nicer stops. I don't even think the frequency is all that great. That new transit center in east downtown looks like something you might find in an outer suburb in most cities or a small town transit center. I can't believe that is the downtown transit center of a metro of 2.2 million. It just shows how low KC's transit funding really is.

There is just no excuse for decade of pretty much nothing but backwards movements for KC transit. So what if KC has two states. Big fucking deal. Work around it. Lots of cities do. But nope. KC can never seem to do anything when it comes to regional cooperation. And it really can't even get its act together on the MO side alone, so it's no wonder KS wants no part of it. I mean even without the KS side, the MO side should have found a way by now to properly fund transit. When you are forced to build by charging the blocks around it huge property tax increases, then you are doing something wrong on all levels of government.

Sorry, but as somebody has been a KC transit advocate all my life, it's sad to see how bad it has gotten and yet everybody is excited about the tram on Main Street which is great, but it's being built in a vacuum.

For the love of god, it's 2023 almost. Fund and build a proper bus system for a city the size of KC and stop talking about crazy stuff like LRT to the airport when you can't even easily take a bus from the Plaza to Westport.

Enough with the excuses. KC is fragmented. Leadership overcomes that. Where is the leadership?

[SilentSpades24]

And on top of all that, Missouri is one of the only states in the country that does not have dedicated funding for transit.

In metro KC, the ATA has to beg any city that has metro bus service to contribute. So this is why there is no fixed route bus services in in most of the MO side suburbs and the few express route that exist are barely funded by the cities themselves every year. When I lived in Blue Springs and the Blue Springs express had 20 standing passengers on every bus, it was still very difficult to keep the route funded every year.

Then on top of that, you have the whole KS side doing it's own thing like you mentioned. Rebranding everything didn't do shit.

And it's not just a reginal thing. City bus service in central KCMO is not that great and once the Main Street Max is gone, there won't be hardly any decent routes in the city other than Troost and Prospect and like I have said, those are nothing special. Just nicer stops. I don't even think the frequency is all that great.

There is just no excuse for decade of pretty much nothing but backwards movements for KC transit. So what if KC has two states. Big fucking deal. Work around it. Lots of cities do. But nope. KC can never seem to do anything when it comes to regional cooperation. And it really can't even get its act together on the MO side alone, so it's no wonder KS wants no part of it. I mean even without the KS side, the MO side should have found a way by now to properly fund transit. When you are forced to build by charging the blocks around it huge property tax increases, then you are doing something wrong on all levels of government.

Sorry, but as somebody has been a KC transit advocate all my life, it's sad to see how bad it has gotten and yet everybody is excited about the tram on Main Street which is great, but it's being built in a vacuum.

For the love of god, it's 2023 almost. Fund and build a proper bus system for a city the size of KC and stop talking about crazy stuff like LRT to the airport when you can't even easily take a bus from the Plaza to Westport.

The reason everyone is excited for the streetcar extension is because it's a bright shiny toy that attracts car riders and the more upscale demographic, rather than the people who rely on transit day in and day out. Matter of fact on that note, Main MAX still hasn't returned to Main Street.....I just wish people would call the streetcar what it is, and it's a development incentive, not transit.

I won't lie when I say I am a bit jaded by the state of transit in this country and in KC especially. I don't know how you begin to approach fixing things in terms of regional coordination.

[GRID]

And on top of all that, Missouri is one of the only states in the country that does not have dedicated funding for transit.

In metro KC, the ATA has to beg any city that has metro bus service to contribute. So this is why there is no fixed route bus services in in most of the MO side suburbs and the few express route that exist are barely funded by the cities themselves every year. When I lived in Blue Springs and the Blue Springs express had 20 standing passengers on every bus, it was still very difficult to keep the route funded every year.

Then on top of that, you have the whole KS side doing it's own thing like you mentioned. Rebranding everything didn't do shit.

And it's not just a reginal thing. City bus service in central KCMO is not that great and once the Main Street Max is gone, there won't be hardly any decent routes in the city other than Troost and Prospect and like I have said, those are nothing special. Just nicer stops. I don't even think the frequency is all that great.

There is just no excuse for decade of pretty much nothing but backwards movements for KC transit. So what if KC has two states. Big fucking deal. Work around it. Lots of cities do. But nope. KC can never seem to do anything when it comes to regional cooperation. And it really can't even get its act together on the MO side alone, so it's no wonder KS wants no part of it. I mean even without the KS side, the MO side should have found a way by now to properly fund transit. When you are forced to build by charging the blocks around it huge property tax increases, then you are doing something wrong on all levels of government.

Sorry, but as somebody has been a KC transit advocate all my life, it's sad to see how bad it has gotten and yet everybody is excited about the tram on Main Street which is great, but it's being built in a vacuum.

For the love of god, it's 2023 almost. Fund and build a proper bus system for a city the size of KC and stop talking about crazy stuff like LRT to the airport when you can't even easily take a bus from the Plaza to Westport.

The reason everyone is excited for the streetcar extension is because it's a bright shiny toy that attracts car riders and the more upscale demographic, rather than the people who rely on transit day in and day out. Matter of fact on that note, Main MAX still hasn't returned to Main Street.....I just wish people would call the streetcar what it is, and it's a development incentive, not transit.

I won't lie when I say I am a bit jaded by the state of transit in this country and in KC especially. I don't know how you begin to approach fixing things in terms of regional coordination.

It absolutely is a development incentive. And there is nothing wrong with that unless it's basically all the city is doing and unfortunately, that happens to be the case in KC. Other than it being a nice user friendly straight line and being free, the streetcar is not designed well for it to ever be anything other than a local "development incentive". It will never be more than a local tram line due to the way it was designed when it probably should have been built center running in dedicated RoW for at least most of the corridor. Main Street is not even getting much of a facelift after years of being torn up. It's just getting tracks thrown on it.

Regardless, it has to be just a part of a much more robust urban and regional bus system. KC has a very small bus system for its size now. It gets smaller every year it seems. While KC had a huge transit system into the 50's, even the 80's it was much larger than it is now.

And I agree, it's not just a KC thing. It's an American thing. I mean even here in DC it's a struggle. It's on a totally different level, but it's still a struggle to make transit a priority and then to actually properly build and run it even if you do fund it.

It's just one more thing that shows has far America has fallen. So many people think we are still the best country in the world. It's just not anymore.

[SilentSpades24]

The problem to me is that transit advocates, urban planners, policy leaders don't quite know or care to actually work on messaging and framing the conversation on things like mass-transportation, smart land-uses, walkability, etc and make it sound attractive and digestible to the common person, or the opposition.

[normalthings]

Kansas City wish list for Kansas Leg includes rail


That the City adopts the following major priorities on matters that may come before the 2023 session of the Kansas State Legislature:

• Transatlantic Air Service. Support state incentives to attract and maintain transatlantic air service from the largest airports serving Kansas residents, including MCI.

• World Cup. Support funding and other efforts related to planning and preparation for the 2026 World Cup, which will showcase the Kansas City region to the world.

• Fixed Rail Transit. Support efforts to expand existing fixed rail streetcar infrastructure to enable increased mobility for residents of Kansas and surrounding areas.

[TheUrbanRoo]

Kansas better fork up something.

Missouri already had to forgo taxes on ticket sales -- if Kansas is going to make Missouri pay for all of World Cup and then just try to reap rewards of people staying Kansas hotels, then just go ahead and cut them off the Bid or Committee, and remove their names, take it all off.

[normalthings]

Kansas better fork up something.

Missouri already had to forgo taxes on ticket sales -- if Kansas is going to make Missouri pay for all of World Cup and then just try to reap rewards of people staying Kansas hotels, then just go ahead and cut them off the Bid or Committee, and remove their names, take it all off.

iirc KS does not pay into VisitKC but VisitKC markets Kansas

[TheUrbanRoo]

Kansas better fork up something.

Missouri already had to forgo taxes on ticket sales -- if Kansas is going to make Missouri pay for all of World Cup and then just try to reap rewards of people staying Kansas hotels, then just go ahead and cut them off the Bid or Committee, and remove their names, take it all off.

KS does not pay into VisitKC but VisitKC markets Kansas

Well that's pretty absurd. Also what's there to even market there...

[DaveKCMO]

Stadium service got outlawed under the Bush Administration to let private services take it over (notice how they never did).

Not quite correct. KCATA was running special event service using federally funded vehicles and that's what got "outlawed". Regular service to the stadiums exists today -- route 47. If KCATA decided to run an express route to TSC independent of game days that would be totally legal. They could also run event service with 100% locally funded vehicles.

[SilentSpades24]

Stadium service got outlawed under the Bush Administration to let private services take it over (notice how they never did).

Not quite correct. KCATA was running special event service using federally funded vehicles and that's what got "outlawed". Regular service to the stadiums exists today -- route 47. If KCATA decided to run an express route to TSC independent of game days that would be totally legal. They could also run event service with 100% locally funded vehicles.

Ahhhhh. That makes sense.

[DaveKCMO]

The problem to me is that transit advocates, urban planners, policy leaders don't quite know or care to actually work on messaging and framing the conversation on things like mass-transportation, smart land-uses, walkability, etc and make it sound attractive and digestible to the common person, or the opposition.

That's because they all live an auto-oriented lifestyle -- except when they travel.

[dukuboy1]

I was thinking that ridership was always the issue and it seems that our transit is basically built to service those who need it, not necessarily those who may want to use it. I live in the Northland, and I work downtown. If there was a dedicated rail service I'd love to park & ride.

I know there is a bus route and even a spot for me to park and ride. But then getting to downtown on the bus takes as long if not longer than it would be for me to drive. There is no upside for me and those like me to use public transit. So that means ridership is typically those who must rely on it.

So you have service that meets the needs, barely, of those who rely on it 100% for the most part. That group is limited in ridership and funds to be able to charge riders. So you have a real mess of funding & usage and I'm not sure how or if you will ever solve it.

Maybe if the Metro grows more overall and we creep closer to 3 million Metro wide the traffic will get worse and mass transit becomes more of a need. We shal see but I just do not see it happening, even though it needs to and should.

[DaveKCMO]

I was thinking that ridership was always the issue and it seems that our transit is basically built to service those who need it, not necessarily those who may want to use it. I live in the Northland, and I work downtown. If there was a dedicated rail service I'd love to park & ride.

I know there is a bus route and even a spot for me to park and ride. But then getting to downtown on the bus takes as long if not longer than it would be for me to drive. There is no upside for me and those like me to use public transit. So that means ridership is typically those who must rely on it.

So you have service that meets the needs, barely, of those who rely on it 100% for the most part. That group is limited in ridership and funds to be able to charge riders. So you have a real mess of funding & usage and I'm not sure how or if you will ever solve it.

Maybe if the Metro grows more overall and we creep closer to 3 million Metro wide the traffic will get worse and mass transit becomes more of a need. We shal see but I just do not see it happening, even though it needs to and should.

Even if you reintroduced fares they aren't very elastic, topping out at maybe $2 or $2.50 (congrats! now you have maybe $20 million in fare revenue to operate a $120 million system!). Driving your own car essentially requires no transaction per trip like transit does so you have to take that into account in a city with no congestion and sprawling land use that makes trips very long in distance. Transit trips will ALWAYS take longer in this setup because you have to stop to provide access. Adding stops/access makes trips slower than driving. People choose transit in other cities because there is congestion, parking is not as plentiful as KC, or they aren't as sprawled as KC so the travel time difference isn't a noticeable.

Seriously, we are VERY sprawled with NO congestion and LOTS of parking everywhere. It's bad math for "choice" transit use.

I know it hurts to acknowledge that we build a transit system mostly for those in need, but that's what will work with our terrible land use. If the system ends up being good enough for many others to take short trips and rely less on their car, so be it. Converse to that is the eco devo focused projects like streetcar, but those would not be built everywhere (just where the land use supports it).

[normalthings]

KCRTA will have an announcement at their annual meeting tomorrow.

[dukuboy1]

I was thinking that ridership was always the issue and it seems that our transit is basically built to service those who need it, not necessarily those who may want to use it. I live in the Northland, and I work downtown. If there was a dedicated rail service I'd love to park & ride.

I know there is a bus route and even a spot for me to park and ride. But then getting to downtown on the bus takes as long if not longer than it would be for me to drive. There is no upside for me and those like me to use public transit. So that means ridership is typically those who must rely on it.

So you have service that meets the needs, barely, of those who rely on it 100% for the most part. That group is limited in ridership and funds to be able to charge riders. So you have a real mess of funding & usage and I'm not sure how or if you will ever solve it.

Maybe if the Metro grows more overall and we creep closer to 3 million Metro wide the traffic will get worse and mass transit becomes more of a need. We shal see but I just do not see it happening, even though it needs to and should.

Even if you reintroduced fares they aren't very elastic, topping out at maybe $2 or $2.50 (congrats! now you have maybe $20 million in fare revenue to operate a $120 million system!). Driving your own car essentially requires no transaction per trip like transit does so you have to take that into account in a city with no congestion and sprawling land use that makes trips very long in distance. Transit trips will ALWAYS take longer in this setup because you have to stop to provide access. Adding stops/access makes trips slower than driving. People choose transit in other cities because there is congestion, parking is not as plentiful as KC, or they aren't as sprawled as KC so the travel time difference isn't a noticeable.

Seriously, we are VERY sprawled with NO congestion and LOTS of parking everywhere. It's bad math for "choice" transit use.

I know it hurts to acknowledge that we build a transit system mostly for those in need, but that's what will work with our terrible land use. If the system ends up being good enough for many others to take short trips and rely less on their car, so be it. Converse to that is the eco devo focused projects like streetcar, but those would not be built everywhere (just where the land use supports it).

Well said, and it will be an issue that will be with us for a long time. Maybe with more residents within the central city/downtown transit can see a boost but who knows. Until then it will remain a system that addresses best it can the needs of those who must rely on it. I’d love for it to be as best as it can but not sure what that investment looks like & the Roi. Like it or not those are the metrics that move the needle. So we shall see. Hopefully with our growth as a city we will see benefits and not look at it through a lens of a welfare program