Regional Transit Coordination

[alejandro46]

I was thinking that ridership was always the issue and it seems that our transit is basically built to service those who need it, not necessarily those who may want to use it. I live in the Northland, and I work downtown. If there was a dedicated rail service I'd love to park & ride.

I know there is a bus route and even a spot for me to park and ride. But then getting to downtown on the bus takes as long if not longer than it would be for me to drive. There is no upside for me and those like me to use public transit. So that means ridership is typically those who must rely on it.

So you have service that meets the needs, barely, of those who rely on it 100% for the most part. That group is limited in ridership and funds to be able to charge riders. So you have a real mess of funding & usage and I'm not sure how or if you will ever solve it.

Maybe if the Metro grows more overall and we creep closer to 3 million Metro wide the traffic will get worse and mass transit becomes more of a need. We shal see but I just do not see it happening, even though it needs to and should.

Even if you reintroduced fares they aren't very elastic, topping out at maybe $2 or $2.50 (congrats! now you have maybe $20 million in fare revenue to operate a $120 million system!). Driving your own car essentially requires no transaction per trip like transit does so you have to take that into account in a city with no congestion and sprawling land use that makes trips very long in distance. Transit trips will ALWAYS take longer in this setup because you have to stop to provide access. Adding stops/access makes trips slower than driving. People choose transit in other cities because there is congestion, parking is not as plentiful as KC, or they aren't as sprawled as KC so the travel time difference isn't a noticeable.

Seriously, we are VERY sprawled with NO congestion and LOTS of parking everywhere. It's bad math for "choice" transit use.

I know it hurts to acknowledge that we build a transit system mostly for those in need, but that's what will work with our terrible land use. If the system ends up being good enough for many others to take short trips and rely less on their car, so be it. Converse to that is the eco devo focused projects like streetcar, but those would not be built everywhere (just where the land use supports it).

Well said, and it will be an issue that will be with us for a long time. Maybe with more residents within the central city/downtown transit can see a boost but who knows. Until then it will remain a system that addresses best it can the needs of those who must rely on it. I’d love for it to be as best as it can but not sure what that investment looks like & the Roi. Like it or not those are the metrics that move the needle. So we shall see. Hopefully with our growth as a city we will see benefits and not look at it through a lens of a welfare program

This is a great point, and something that may not be completly fair despite it's best efforts. The streetcar is a development tool and a transit by choice. The bus is often transit by necessity. We need to do a good job to balance funding and expansion of both obviously and we can increase ridership of the whole system. It does come down to tough choices with the sprawled bad development environment in KC.

[dukuboy1]

Street car will be a nice tourist way to get from things in the River market to The Plaza. Sure it will have some legit commuter usage but mostly a weekend way to get around. But that is highly valuable for sure. Maybe they’ll be a few East/West spurs but I doubt it. Bus service is easiest & most cost effective transit. The only rail service would be to service suburbs, airport, or Chiefs games (assuming Royals are downtown). Otherwise whatever the plan it will always be in a vacuum of sorts where 30-35% of the metro population will use it regularly

[DaveKCMO]

Street car will be a nice tourist way to get from things in the River market to The Plaza. Sure it will have some legit commuter usage but mostly a weekend way to get around.

I promise you ridership of the new river-to-UMKC route will be more work/school focused (I don't like the word "commute" because it's not a destination) than the downtown segment. Saturdays will still represent peak because of zero fare and the number of activity centers linked, but the weekdays will be majority work/school. The current Main MAX ridership is just too good of a comp to avoid.

[beautyfromashes]

I promise you ridership of the new river-to-UMKC route will be more work/school focused (I don't like the word "commute" because it's not a destination) than the downtown segment. Saturdays will still represent peak because of zero fare and the number of activity centers linked, but the weekdays will be majority work/school. The current Main MAX ridership is just too good of a comp to avoid.

Totally agree with this, especially the school part. KCAI, UMKC, KCU, etc will put a very large amount of people on the streetcar extension. I think it will also drive some more growth in residential downtown as students will choose to live there and ride the streetcar instead of campus housing which in many instances is more expensive. Hopefully, this will drive growth in the city even after graduations as students can't imagine not living in a transit-oriented area. Young people and artists are always the first initiators of change. After this happens, everyone else will follow. Will be really fun to watch.

[TheUrbanRoo]

I can not begin to describe how many UMKC students will benefit by the streetcar, and are forced to walk insane distances to get to school from apartments. This will be huge for them.

[FlippantCitizen]

The extension will provide a lot more utility to a lot more residents in daily life. If NKC and E/W come to pass, then you are really talking about the beginning of an ecosystem where streetcar oriented life is possible for a large number of urban core residents. After that, getting Independence Ave to serve more of the east side and the NE neighborhoods, plus Trolley Track ROW to Waldo would result huge number of residents served. I really wish we were riding that system today.

[normalthings]

KCATA having a strategy meeting with "InfraStrategies LLC" tomorrow AM. This group looks to do strategic capital plan and project finance advisory. The experience tab on their website is full of multi-billion dollar LRT lines and metro transit expansion packages across North Amerca.

[SilentSpades24]

KCATA having a strategy meeting with "InfraStrategies LLC" tomorrow AM. This group looks to do strategic capital plan and project finance advisory. The experience tab on their website is full of multi-billion dollar LRT lines and metro transit expansion packages across North Amerca.

Much more of the latter, little of the former.

[GRID]

I can not begin to describe how many UMKC students will benefit by the streetcar, and are forced to walk insane distances to get to school from apartments. This will be huge for them.

This just shows how bad KC's bus system really is. UMKC is in the heart of KCMO linear urban core where bus routes and frequency should be really good regardless of the tram line.

I hear even the max routes barely run at 30 minute frequencies anymore.

What in the hell has happened to KC's bus system??? Seems like it will take a miracle just to get the system back up to where it was in the 90's.

Why are people in KC not being honest with how bad the bus system is there? Which means KC doesn't have a usable transit system streetcar or not.

[Anthony_Hugo98]

What in the hell has happened to KC's bus system??? Seems like it will take a miracle just to get the system back up to where it was in the 90's.

Mainly? Lack of funding from the region…but mostly no drivers. Like no where even remotely close to enough drivers

[normalthings]

What in the hell has happened to KC's bus system??? Seems like it will take a miracle just to get the system back up to where it was in the 90's.

Mainly? Lack of funding from the region…but mostly no drivers. Like no where even remotely close to enough drivers

Transit costs inflation outpaces general inflation. So cost increases faster than revenue

[FlippantCitizen]

I think basically everyone who has tried to use the bus in the last two years is willing to acknowledge the state of the system is abysmal.

[GRID]

Come on. Every city is dealing with driver shortages etc and KC's bus system has been in a downward fall prior to the recent labor issues.

Just excuses. Always excuses.

Same with the lack of buses at KCI to rental car and parking. BWI still has plenty of buses. They find a way to make it work. Pay drivers 80k, purchase articulated buses. Whatever it takes to not have to wait 30 minutes for an airport shuttle. Same with KC's city buses. I mean they made it free, but now the bus system in KC is probably one of the worst in the country. What's the point of making it free if it's totally unusable.

That downtown transit center looks like it should be in Jeff City or something. Sorry, this just bugs me. I grew up riding buses there and always wanted the system to be better, I never thought that 20 years later it would be a fraction of the size it was when I used it every day in the 80's and 90's. Buses are the core of any transit system.

I just don't see how people can be excited about the tram line when the bus system is so bad there.

[normalthings]

Come on. Every city is dealing with driver shortages etc and KC's bus system has been in a downward fall prior to the recent labor issues.

Just excuses. Always excuses.

Same with the lack of buses at KCI to rental car and parking. BWI still has plenty of buses. They find a way to make it work. Pay drivers 80k, purchase articulated buses. Whatever it takes to not have to wait 30 minutes for an airport shuttle. Same with KC's city buses. I mean they made it free, but now the bus system in KC is probably one of the worst in the country. What's the point of making it free if it's totally unusable.

I just don't see how people can be excited about the tram line when the bus system is so bad there.

Farebox was pretty minimal not that the city filled the full gap iirc.

Paying drivers more means you can afford fewer drivers. Shortages in drivers existed before the pandemic but are the impacts of an aging workforce have been accelerated due to COVID.

https://www.businessinsider.com/bus-dri ... rce-2022-7

[TheUrbanRoo]

On the bright side it won’t really matter for people on Main in a couple years atleast

[GRID]

Come on. Every city is dealing with driver shortages etc and KC's bus system has been in a downward fall prior to the recent labor issues.

Just excuses. Always excuses.

Same with the lack of buses at KCI to rental car and parking. BWI still has plenty of buses. They find a way to make it work. Pay drivers 80k, purchase articulated buses. Whatever it takes to not have to wait 30 minutes for an airport shuttle. Same with KC's city buses. I mean they made it free, but now the bus system in KC is probably one of the worst in the country. What's the point of making it free if it's totally unusable.

I just don't see how people can be excited about the tram line when the bus system is so bad there.

Cost to make it free was pretty minimal, not that the city filled the gap iirc

I know that. Mainly because the system was so barely used as it was. So make it a better system and continue charging fares. Whatever. It just seems like KC's bus system is an embarrassment for a city of half million and a metro of 2.2 million. Yet the city is building one of the most expensive mixed traffic tram lines you can build. That streetcar is crazy expensive per mile for what it is.

[GRID]

On the bright side it won’t really matter for people on Main in a couple years atleast

I went to UMKC and took buses to the campus from Crown Center where I worked several days a week and then would take a bus to my house in Waldo. It was fine.

My point is that all anybody in KC ever talks about is the streetcar while the overall bus system is absolutely abysmal and has become nearly unusable. I bring this up because I have relatives in KCMO that are telling me how bad the bus system is now and so I started doing some research on how much the system has fallen even just since I left KC.

[Anthony_Hugo98]

Come on. Every city is dealing with driver shortages etc and KC's bus system has been in a downward fall prior to the recent labor issues.

Just excuses. Always excuses.

Same with the lack of buses at KCI to rental car and parking. BWI still has plenty of buses. They find a way to make it work. Pay drivers 80k, purchase articulated buses. Whatever it takes to not have to wait 30 minutes for an airport shuttle. Same with KC's city buses. I mean they made it free, but now the bus system in KC is probably one of the worst in the country. What's the point of making it free if it's totally unusable.

That downtown transit center looks like it should be in Jeff City or something. Sorry, this just bugs me. I grew up riding buses there and always wanted the system to be better, I never thought that 20 years later it would be a fraction of the size it was when I used it every day in the 80's and 90's. Buses are the core of any transit system.

I just don't see how people can be excited about the tram line when the bus system is so bad there.

I mean…okay? You can literally talk to Dave about this, he’ll tell you basically the same thing, albeit in better detail…

Also an extended streetcar line doesn’t detract from the bus lines, it actually increases possible reach, due to different entities operating each, driver forces are separate. Former Main Street busses and drivers transfer to other routes to increase frequency.

[GRID]

DC making buses free, but keeping fares for trains.

KC is mentioned in the article.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transpor ... obus-vote/

[trexel94]

RideKC and MARC want a study done for transit to KCI

https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/ka ... or-new-kci