Regional Transit Coordination

Transportation topics in KC
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

Post by AlkaliAxel »

beautyfromashes wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:57 am
earthling wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:20 pm Good to hear that from a 20 something. Hopefully the metro can move on and not dwell on divisions of the past, but there will be competition and can't really change that at this point. Would suggest acknowledging the competition and keep trying to collaborate anyway, not use it as a means to propagate skepticism and distrust.
Personally, I'd like a little retribution before ending this border war. The KS suburbs pillaged the MO side for over 50 years now. I'd like to see the opposite happen for a few decades before playing nice. I sure don't want to throw them connection to our revitalization so they can take advantage of it. They don't contribute much of anything for the social issues the metro faces in regards to homelessness or affordable housing or pay for civic programs that benefit society, the arts, don't fund stadiums or the zoo. Attempt to steal every good corporation, the stadiums, airport, American Royal. To me, they're a bad actor and there's no reason to connect to an area that is SO self-serving and will only contribute to projects that are a net benefit to them directly. Why?
I’m curious to see if they’ll be willing to fund the Chiefs.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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For the record, there are two Johnson County "Fast & Frequent" corridors in SmartMoves that merit investment beyond basic local bus service:

- Plaza/SMP/Metcalf
- 75th/Quivira

http://www.kcsmartmoves.org/SmartMovesN ... Fand30.pdf
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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AlkaliAxel wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:26 pm You can say in your opinion that the JoCo suburbs are overrated, but the fact of the matter is that they aren't ranked that way. Overland Park is consistently ranked Top5 in the country due to the schools, costs, job, parks, etc. I know what they did 50 years ago, but it's over and done.
What they did 50 years ago isn't "over and done," it's literally the reason they continue to rank so highly on these lists of top places to live. Decades ago, a bunch of affluent white people fled to JoCo with their wealth and their white friends to build themselves a little mid-century white utopia, and modern JoCo continues to benefit to this day from the snowballing effect of later generations of affluent white people choosing to stay there or move there, invest their resources there, and withhold their resources from the city. The "schools, costs, job, parks, etc" didn't just materialize out of the ether. The present is not disconnected from the past.
Do you know that essentially every major Midwestern city except about 3 have basically been hollowed out to the core? The only reason KC metro is one of the very few to buck that trend is because we had incredible suburbs that made up for it. Not everyone wants to move to a city, many want a suburban place like JoCo.
Suburbs are the parasites that hollowed out urban cores, and this was as true in KC as anywhere else. People wanted "a suburban place like JoCo" for some obvious reasons.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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AlkaliAxel wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:26 pm You can say in your opinion that the JoCo suburbs are overrated, but the fact of the matter is that they aren't ranked that way. Overland Park is consistently ranked Top5 in the country due to the schools, costs, job, parks, etc. I know what they did 50 years ago, but it's over and done.

Do you know that essentially every major Midwestern city except about 3 have basically been hollowed out to the core? The only reason KC metro is one of the very few to buck that trend is because we had incredible suburbs that made up for it. Not everyone wants to move to a city, many want a suburban place like JoCo. And again, I agree that we shouldn't be partnering with them on rail and stupid projects which aren't in the overall metro's interest- but there is this constant belief that if Kansas grows then Missouri can't. It's not a zero sum game.

Here's the key moving forward: I think the partnership the KC metro has with JoCo could be an amazing thing long term- soon in the future we can offer each. person the best of both of either world of their choosing- either an amazing urban life, or an amazing suburban family life. Very few metro's in this country can do both at a high level. That's the golden goose I think we have going forward.
The only way you would think that JoCo is not overrated is if you simply don't travel much or know much about how the data is crunched to come to the conclusion that one nice suburb is ranked higher than another nice suburb. Overland Park looks great on paper, but is it really any different than similar suburbs of other cities? No, it's just not. And in many cases I find many lower ranked suburbs on those stupid lists offer a much better quality of life than Overland Park does. OP ranks high mostly because it's one of not many cities that have almost all high demographics especially for a larger suburb. Same with Leawood etc. It's all how the lines are drawn around specific demographics that gets you ranked as a "top" suburb. That means very little diversity, very few social issues etc. The suburbs around DC blow away Overland Park. They just have so much more to offer. But many also have large minority populations, may not have hospitals technically in their city limits etc. Overland Park looks EXACTLY like parts of suburban Indy that can never appear on such lists because those areas are actually in the city limits of Indy where citywide stats won't look great.

The one thing that OP has more of that most comparable sized suburbs in similar sized metros is office space. OP and the rest of JoCo have literally filled its office parks with companies that used to be in KCMO (and to a much lesser extent KCK). I mean even the EPA is now in some sprawling office park. It is nearly impossible to get companies from outside the region to move to Kansas. Even to Overland Park. There is zero demand for people that live in places like the east and west coast to move their offices to suburban KC. It happens once in a while, but it's very rare. Most people just do not want to move to places like KS. JoCo has developed its entire economy based on taking from KCMO. KCMO has actually had much better luck over the past few decades attracting out of town companies (although they struggle too), but even many of those have then later moved to JoCo.

Even things like hospitals. OP looks great on paper because it has so many hospitals within its city limits. Many of which moved from KCMO and those hospitals still serve people in south KCMO etc, but because they are in OP, the stats of OP look better.

Same with retail etc. OP, Leawood etc have a lot of retail, but look in the parking lots. It's half MO tags. People in western and southern KCMO and beyond now have to drive to JoCo for much of their retail. Even the plaza has really been hurt by Leawood Town Center, Oak park Mall etc over the years.

JoCo barely let blacks into the county as recently as the 90's and I would imagine there is still some racial tension there even today in places like Leawood. I have black family members and friends. There is a reason they all live in places like Lee's Summit over JoCo.

JoCo was able to hide behind the state line and use the state line to fuel white flight even more than most metros did. You see, most metro areas in the 50's 60's 70's 80's started integrating urban and suburban schools. JoCO was one of the few places that could actually say that you can move your white family to JoCo and ever have to worry about urban core kids being bussed in or you having to bus your kids to the city. Even the Missouri suburbs dealt with this as a potential threat. JoCo did not and trust me, their real estate agents used this to their advantage.

I'm sorry, but JoCo has not been beneficial to KC. Metro KC has not grown that much. KC used to be a top 20 metro and now it's not even in the top 30. KC would still have suburbs if JoCo were a lake. The regional metro population would be the same or higher. The people would just be living in different parts of the metro. However, I think the city of KCMO would be a much better place if it did not spend that last 50 years bleeding out to JoCo.

Imagine if Jackson County had 1.2 million, Clay had 600k and Platte had 300k. You don't think KC would have a much easier time funding things like the zoo, museums etc. You don't think there would be better regional transit? You don't' think KC would have a downtown much more on the scale of Denver today if there were not millions of sq ft of office space in the suburbs? You don't think more companies would be downtown today?

JoCo killed KC and it continues to do so today. KCMO needs to figure out that KS is NOT a friend to them and create a better alliance with the MO side jurisdictions. That's honestly their only hope to not be totally overshadowed by JoCo in another 20 years. That's why the thought of the Chiefs moving to KS hurts so much. If the KS side had their way, they would have the airport, the zoo etc today. Science City would be over there. The list goes on and on.

And now today, most people in JoCo actually think what you just said. That KCMO is only as good as it is because of JoCo. That's so wrong on so many levels.

Concentrate on the MO side for reginal transit (and everything else regional). Screw JoCo....
Last edited by GRID on Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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^Sorry I’m not gonna read all that and respond lol. I hope you can understand.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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AlkaliAxel wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:41 pm ^Sorry I’m not gonna read all that and respond lol. I hope you can understand.
Probably should. Might actually learn something.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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GRID wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:42 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:41 pm ^Sorry I’m not gonna read all that and respond lol. I hope you can understand.
Probably should. Might actually learn something.
Well for starters I never said JoCo was as good as KCMO. Obviously I think KCMO is far better and superior, that’s why im here on Rag. That being said, I still think JoCo is a great place and I don’t hate it at all. You can try to downplay it but they’re still great suburbs- for the sheer size of the suburban population in KC it’s great that they’re that successful.

Sure, you’ll get little towns like Carmel, IN and Brentwood, TN that “match JoCo” in appearance, but Overland Park, Olathe, Leawood ALL are highly ranked and that’s almost 600k people in JoCo. Not just a few precincts like these one-off cities in some metros that are nice. I don’t think you realize how rare that is for most suburbs in US. Yes, what I’m saying we quite literally have maybe have the best suburbs in America right here when you look at size and scope.

I think much of what is said here, atleast in my lifetime, is exaggerating- I’ve seen companies pop up around my home in JoCo since I was a little kid, and with the exception of AMC, I didn’t see them didn’t come from Missouri. Most were either started elsewhere or in JoCo already. In fact the only one I’ve heard about recently moving was Waddell Reed, and that was going to KC, lol.

Suburbs have hollowed every city in the country. Only some of the metros have been able to grow and fix their cores while it’s happening- KCMO has done a good job at that the last 20 years, and going forward I see both JoCo and KCMO being able to grow together.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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^Beware of diatribe that essentially fingerpoints to only one root cause.

When experiencing the city emptying out, can imagine many would want to seek a single root cause to point blame that can be wrapped up into a message many want to hear. A lot of belief systems come about that way.

Meanwhile KCMO is getting its mojo back! Time to start focusing on a relatively more unified metro with broader collaboration while acknowledging state line competition.
Last edited by earthling on Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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KC is always crying over spilt milk but never cleaning it up. Makes for a sticky mess.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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earthling wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:40 pm ^Beware of diatribe that essentially fingerpoints to only one root cause.

When experiencing the city emptying out, can imagine many would want to seek a single root cause to point blame that can be wrapped up into a message many want to hear. A lot of belief systems come about that way.

Meanwhile KCMO is getting its mojo back! Time to start focusing on a relatively more unified metro with broader collaboration while acknowledging state line competition.
Totally agree. KCMO has been one of the most successful cities in all of the Midwest the last couple decades, and is above average in population growth relative to the nation. If anything, we’re only going up from that as well. I think alot of the time people need to step back and look at that big picture instead of getting caught up in small failures from the city. We’re doing well.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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AlkaliAxel wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:04 pm
earthling wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:40 pm ^Beware of diatribe that essentially fingerpoints to only one root cause.

When experiencing the city emptying out, can imagine many would want to seek a single root cause to point blame that can be wrapped up into a message many want to hear. A lot of belief systems come about that way.

Meanwhile KCMO is getting its mojo back! Time to start focusing on a relatively more unified metro with broader collaboration while acknowledging state line competition.
Totally agree. KCMO has been one of the most successful cities in all of the Midwest the last couple decades, and is above average in population growth relative to the nation. If anything, we’re only going up from that as well. I think alot of the time people need to step back and look at that big picture instead of getting caught up in small failures from the city. We’re doing well.
KCMO as a city has been average at best compared to other midwest peer cities. All the stuff you see happening in Downtown KC is also happening in every other city in the midwest. The only reason KCMO stands out against other cites like Milwaukee, Cincy etc is because it has fast growing suburbs within its city limits, similar to Indy and Columbus.

I agree though. KCMO is doing okay after decades of a dying downtown and very slow growth in its suburban portions.

The last 15 years, Metro KC has seen a dramatic turn around in relevance and the main reason for that is the Missouri side has been more dominant.

During the previous decades, the Kansas side has been more dominant and growing mostly at the expense of the Missouri side and KC's "regional" power actually declined because KC was basically splitting into multiple small metros that all only cared about their own areas. So while metro KC still grew, the decaying downtown and migration of suburban wealth to Kansas hurt the entire metro area's ability to compete and maintain/build large metro amenities.

Work with the KS side, but concentrate on making the MO side the dominant side again. That's really the only way KC stays relevant and doesn't become basically two stand alone small metros that are right next to each other, which is what is has sort of become.

KC is too small to have so much of its corporate and residential wealth in the suburbs, let alone suburbs in a totally different state. KCMO and the MO side suburbs have to get some of that economy back from KS. The Kansas side has zero interest in seeing the MO side prosper, so work with them but don't waste too much time and resources doing so.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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GRID wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:29 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:04 pm
earthling wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:40 pm ^Beware of diatribe that essentially fingerpoints to only one root cause.

When experiencing the city emptying out, can imagine many would want to seek a single root cause to point blame that can be wrapped up into a message many want to hear. A lot of belief systems come about that way.

Meanwhile KCMO is getting its mojo back! Time to start focusing on a relatively more unified metro with broader collaboration while acknowledging state line competition.
Totally agree. KCMO has been one of the most successful cities in all of the Midwest the last couple decades, and is above average in population growth relative to the nation. If anything, we’re only going up from that as well. I think alot of the time people need to step back and look at that big picture instead of getting caught up in small failures from the city. We’re doing well.
KCMO as a city has been average at best compared to other midwest peer cities. All the stuff you see happening in Downtown KC is also happening in every other city in the midwest. The only reason KCMO stands out against other cites like Milwaukee, Cincy etc is because it has fast growing suburbs within its city limits, similar to Indy and Columbus.

I agree though. KCMO is doing okay after decades of a dying downtown and very slow growth in its suburban portions.

The last 15 years, Metro KC has seen a dramatic turn around in relevance and the main reason for that is the Missouri side has been more dominant.

During the previous decades, the Kansas side has been more dominant and growing mostly at the expense of the Missouri side and KC's "regional" power actually declined because KC was basically splitting into multiple small metros that all only cared about their own areas. So while metro KC still grew, the decaying downtown and migration of suburban wealth to Kansas hurt the entire metro area's ability to compete and maintain/build large metro amenities.

Work with the KS side, but concentrate on making the MO side the dominant side again. That's really the only way KC stays relevant and doesn't become basically two stand alone small metros that are right next to each other, which is what is has sort of become.

KC is too small to have so much of its corporate and residential wealth in the suburbs, let alone suburbs in a totally different state. KCMO and the MO side suburbs have to get some of that economy back from KS. The Kansas side has zero interest in seeing the MO side prosper, so work with them but don't waste too much time and resources doing so.
Ehhhh compared that’s just not true. KCMO metro has gotten alot more population growth than most of the Midwest cities except a couple. Indianapolis growth IIRC is mostly coming from its suburbs, not urban core growth. Minneanapolis is the only one like KC seeing legit urban core growth.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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The only cities that are really worse than KC are true rusbelt cities and KC is not really a true rustbelt city. KC has more in common with MSP, Denver and Nashville than Detroit, Cleveland and Pittsburgh as far as why those cities declined. KC is more of a white collar metro with plenty of room to grow, but it's not growing like most white collar metros are.

And again, all cities in the midwest are seeing major investment in their downtowns. Even Detroit. Rustbelt cities like Milwaukee, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, etc have all seen just as much downtown development over the past 15 yeas that KC has seen. Most have seen more office and hotel development than KC has had.

And again, KCMO stats look good on paper, but take away northland growth and the city of KCMO is still relatively stagnant or slow growth.

I'm not saying that KC is not seeing some amazing urban core development. I'm saying that what is going on in urban KC is happening in every city in the country. And if Kansas had not basically stolen a very large portion of the KCMO economy, (most of which will never return), the ENTIRE KC metro area would be a much different city today. Not just downtown.

So doing anything that would enhance the KS side (except maybe downtown kck) at this point is counterproductive for KCMO and the metro area.

People in KS don't understand this, but there is nothing about JoCo that is impressive to people outside the KC area. It's typical suburbia that has no real national appeal that urban KCMO might have.

If metro KC really wants to attract people from outside the rural midwest, it has to concentrate on something other than suburban sprawl. That's my personal opinion. But KC can do what it wants.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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GRID wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:18 pm The only cities that are really worse than KC are true rusbelt cities and KC is not really a true rustbelt city. KC has more in common with MSP, Denver and Nashville than Detroit, Cleveland and Pittsburgh as far as why those cities declined. KC is more of a white collar metro with plenty of room to grow, but it's not growing like most white collar metros are.

And again, all cities in the midwest are seeing major investment in their downtowns. Even Detroit. Rustbelt cities like Milwaukee, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, etc have all seen just as much downtown development over the past 15 yeas that KC has seen. Most have seen more office and hotel development than KC has had.

And again, KCMO stats look good on paper, but take away northland growth and the city of KCMO is still relatively stagnant or slow growth.

I'm not saying that KC is not seeing some amazing urban core development. I'm saying that what is going on in urban KC is happening in every city in the country. And if Kansas had not basically stolen a very large portion of the KCMO economy, (most of which will never return), the ENTIRE KC metro area would be a much different city today. Not just downtown.

So doing anything that would enhance the KS side (except maybe downtown kck) at this point is counterproductive for KCMO and the metro area.

People in KS don't understand this, but there is nothing about JoCo that is impressive to people outside the KC area. It's typical suburbia that has no real national appeal that urban KCMO might have.

If metro KC really wants to attract people from outside the rural midwest, it has to concentrate on something other than suburban sprawl. That's my personal opinion. But KC can do what it wants.
Agree agree. We are doing great when compared to some of the biggest losers. I feel like some of those rust-belt cities are setting themselves up for future development better than we are too (universities, tech, transit, etc).
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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^Yeah pretty good chance Indy and Columbus will pass up KC metro in population at some point but they have high profile universities, state capitol helps and perhaps biggest factor, able to grab bigger share of rust belt exit. Only one KC has control of is to raise profile of local universities (and better state line cooperation would help). KC is doing pretty well considering how isolated it is and no natural environment as an attraction. Denver obviously has the mountain life it capitalized well on and back when they did new airport it launched Denver. KC's new airport should help but maybe too little too late in this era, might need a homegrown airline like Vangard again.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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Y’all need to stop dooming. Columbus and Indianapolis are the only two peer Midwest cities who have any other real population growth and it’s only *marginally* more than KC. So again, 2 other cities? That’s what I lead this whole argument with that it’s only about 2-3 more cities in the whole Midwest with any real growth. And tbh, KC could very well pass their growth rates in the next decade. Neither of those cities have invested much in real transit. You can believe and say “everyone has a downtown like KC now in the Midwest!” but nobody actually thinks that.

I’m sure that every downtown in the country is experiencing some growth, but KC’s downtown is standing out in the pack. Almost 80% population growth in the loop for example. There’s certain people here that are jaded about KC from a while ago and it shows.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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^Generally agree that from a Midwest perspective Indy/COL are the only two other up and coming new economy players - KC has better urban bones but they are indeed getting a bit more substantial growth coming from rust belt. MSP is well established otherwise, for now.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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OneRideKC.Org only has links to a round of meetings early in the summer. I wonder if they received an icy reception to the message and called it quits.
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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langosta wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:21 pm OneRideKC.Org only has links to a round of meetings early in the summer. I wonder if they received an icy reception to the message and called it quits.
Nope. Consensus takes awhile. KCATA's board was just updated on the project in open session.

https://civicclerk.blob.core.windows.ne ... tion%2Fpdf
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Re: Regional Transit Coordination

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Why haven’t there been any updates since summer?
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