Streetcar Phase 3

[DaveKCMO]

Completely anecdotal, but today when I drove south on N.Oak from Barry down to Vivion I saw at least a half dozen people waiting at bus stops. Take it FWIW, but I think that northland usage might be more than you think - especially if it's a legitimate option for commuting.

daily ridership in the hundreds.

[flyingember]

that comes back to one of the key things of transit. it's the quality of the corridor being connected and what it does to the system and the city. jobs, ridership, redevelopment, services access

some corridors aren't heavy transit today but the services and businesses could be beneficial to a system as the whole. imagine someone on Indep Ave getting access to more doctors offices on a Saturday at sooner than 60 minute frequency, adding to others south of the river. their insurance could be limited to mostly suburban doctors today. (which wouldn't surprise me, could be an interesting study to confirm or deny)

N. Oak is 4.5 miles from Vivion to Barry and is 80-90% businesses along one or both sides with homes right behind the entire length. and the corridor is on the slow path to more density. i.e. Linden Square

[aknowledgeableperson]

6th district has submitted a PIAC request to study the last mile(ish) between the end of the country club right-of-way and the cerner campus. so, i guess we have an official start to phase 3 streetcar.

Keep it on Wornall all the way to Bannister. They do something on Bannister, BRT or Rail from Ward Parkway shops to Cerner South Campus.

Why not go down Troost to Bannister?

[flyingember]

Why not go down Troost to Bannister?

#1 transit line in KC, needs more access to services, good redevelopment opportunity, area needs access to jobs and you can go down 47th to Troost which would add Nelson connectivity

seems logical

[flyingember]

good detail to grab for before it drops off the CCEB website. the Clay County KC light rail ballot results in 2008

21293 for
30847 against

intriguingly Nixon won governor by almost the same ratio county-wide. for party recognition the county voted mixed, showing it's not instantly leaning one way or the other in a major election

so the right transit project could get a yes vote in the northland.

[flyingember]

I was thinking. based on the idea of having a 2-4 mile reach off Phase 2, what would be the single most critical destination or route to improve the system as a whole?

For me, it would be to get within a block of Sprint Center and then going to Bartle Hall and a turn to the Kauffman Center.

[loftguy]

I was thinking. based on the idea of having a 2-4 mile reach off Phase 2, what would be the single most critical destination or route to improve the system as a whole?

For me, it would be to get within a block of Sprint Center and then going to Bartle Hall and a turn to the Kauffman Center.

Yep. Take out those five/six blocks and by golly, we won't have to walk a'tall.

[Demosthenes]

I was thinking. based on the idea of having a 2-4 mile reach off Phase 2, what would be the single most critical destination or route to improve the system as a whole?

For me, it would be to get within a block of Sprint Center and then going to Bartle Hall and a turn to the Kauffman Center.

Sorry, I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying. Are you suggesting that a good third phase would be to connect these dots? If so I think this would not be a good idea. Much too close to the Main Street line.

[flyingember]

it's too close to go east-west across Main?

[Demosthenes]

it's too close to go east-west across Main?

Yea that certainly helps with my confusion

Yea man I'm not familiar with this 2-4 mile reach off phase 2 or whatever. What is this phase 3 you're talking about?

[smh]

it's too close to go east-west across Main?

Yea that certainly helps with my confusion

Yea man I'm not familiar with this 2-4 mile reach off phase 2 or whatever. What is this phase 3 you're talking about?

Agreed.

[flyingember]

it's too close to go east-west across Main?

Yea that certainly helps with my confusion

Yea man I'm not familiar with this 2-4 mile reach off phase 2 or whatever. What is this phase 3 you're talking about?

I can't imagine you're being purposefully obtuse, so see the original post of this thread. or how about the title of it?

since it's purely conceptual at this point why not think about connecting more top destinations with lines that also will expand the residential reach of the line instead of just looking at what's been studied?

12th st to the bottoms has been looked at. I don't get it as a line. it has way less benefits for redevelopment, tourism, destinations or jobs.

a like that goes into the government district along with Spring Center. Bartle Hall has value to get close to. connecting the two convention buildings together has tons of value for the convention business

why not go down Broadway to the Kauffman Center and then south from there? it would put a stop at a major parking garage downtown, allowing for that investment to get more use. we spent a lot of money for it to sit empty most of the time

a line down Broadway helps expand the residential redevelopment potential. it could give a direct stop in Penn Valley Park and potentially could give a direct connection to Penn Valley CC. then could make a turn and connect with 31st.

So instead of needing a complex turn onto Main or a transfer, 31st goes to Penn Valley CC and then up into downtown, then turns onto 12th/13th or so.

[grovester]

it's too close to go east-west across Main?

Yea that certainly helps with my confusion

Yea man I'm not familiar with this 2-4 mile reach off phase 2 or whatever. What is this phase 3 you're talking about?

I can't imagine you're being purposefully obtuse, so see the original post of this thread. or how about the title of it?

since it's purely conceptual at this point why not think about connecting more top destinations with lines that also will expand the residential reach of the line instead of just looking at what's been studied?

12th st to the bottoms has been looked at. I don't get it as a line. it has way less benefits for redevelopment, tourism, destinations or jobs.

a like that goes into the government district along with Spring Center. Bartle Hall has value to get close to. connecting the two convention buildings together has tons of value for the convention business

why not go down Broadway to the Kauffman Center and then south from there? it would put a stop at a major parking garage downtown, allowing for that investment to get more use. we spent a lot of money for it to sit empty most of the time

a line down Broadway helps expand the residential redevelopment potential. it could give a direct stop in Penn Valley Park and potentially could give a direct connection to Penn Valley CC. then could make a turn and connect with 31st.

So instead of needing a complex turn onto Main or a transfer, 31st goes to Penn Valley CC and then up into downtown, then turns onto 12th/13th or so.

And so on...

[aknowledgeableperson]

One worry to have is the farther out or any expansion will be going into areas that are less dense and a lower tax base for ridership and operational funds. There were many items that hurt the city's previous extensive streetcar system and one was the number of miles in the system and the low population.

It is one thing to have a system to encourage development but as one goes into the CCROW area there isn't much to develop or redevelop unless one wants to tear down good housing and create a denser area.

[Stockton]

I can't imagine you're being purposefully obtuse....

You didn't make very clear what you were talking about. At first I thought you were suggesting the western end of an E-W line, but now I see your idea is the northern end of a N-S line.

While we're dreaming, I think a route that would make the most sense going out of downtown the way you suggest is basically that of the old Roanoke bus line before it was discontinued. That route hit the west side, SW BLVD, W 39th restaurant district, KU Med, western Westport, and the Plaza. Something that travelled 17th St, Summit, SW BLVD, Roanoke, 39th, State Line, Westport Road, and Roanoke again might be interesting, although that would miss the IRS and the center of Penn Valley Park, and PVCC. Any alignment further east is probably too close to whatever route the extension of the downtown line currently being built will take once extended to the Plaza.

[Demosthenes]

Haha purposefully obtuse... that's a good one! No man, just can't read your mind.

I actually kind of like the idea of a 12th street line. 12th is after all a classic major Kansas City road and would connect downtown with the Bottoms. This line would also allow for an easy expansion into inner KCK which could be well used and nice to have. The line would go by the northern edge of Bartle Hall, the Folly, and hotels. Going east through downtown you would hit the civic buildings like you were wanting in your phase 3 line and continue onto the east village and potential development further east. We could demolish these dreadful projects east of the Paseo in the future and reestablish the famous 12th street and Vine. So as you can see, there are plenty of both destinations and development opportunities along 12th street. This could be a really great streetcar line.

I like Stockton's idea too. Sounds like the, what is it the 47 bus line I think? I used to take it quite a bit when I lived off 39th and Wyoming. Good connector line.

As for needing to reach the Sprint Center by rail in a future phase, a) I thought that Cordish was opposed to running rail down Grand, and b) is Main really not close enough? I mean, I really dislike Cordish trying to say we can't run transit where we want to, it's total bullshit, but maybe we could catch it on Oak or something. Honestly though, I don't like the idea. Main street is the Sprint Center stop as far as I'm concerned. People in KC must get better about walking a couple blocks to their destinations. And even in KC two blocks is not even an issue. Especially when you have two blocks of the Power n Light district to walk through. And hey, if there was a 12 street line there would be another stop just a block away .

Someday it would be nice to have another line going down Broadway through Midtown. I don't see this happening for some time though. Density and transit use would have to increase drastically. I would much rather see a line going down Troost first.

[flyingember]

keep in mind that parallel lines won't just be about service, but also service redundancy.

Indep Ave, 31st and say 47th along with Troost, Main and Broadway forms a decent grid. if one segment is cut for bridge work, bringing in equipment for a building project, a major accident or such, trains/service can be rerouted around it

so while I agree that looking just at destinations it's not *that* far to the Sprint Center from Main, if the terminal rr bridge is cut for work you could still get from the plaza to downtown via a Broadway line with a single seat ride. A Troost line would add similar redundancy if you connect it to main via 47th all the way to Indep Ave.

[Pork Chop]

One worry to have is the farther out or any expansion will be going into areas that are less dense and a lower tax base for ridership and operational funds. There were many items that hurt the city's previous extensive streetcar system and one was the number of miles in the system and the low population.

It is one thing to have a system to encourage development but as one goes into the CCROW area there isn't much to develop or redevelop unless one wants to tear down good housing and create a denser area.

I agree with this assessment. I have nothing really against going to Brookside or Waldo via the CCROW, but I rather it not be at the expense of rebuilding the urban core. I would rather see the first plan come to fruition and that's going to 51st and main as the terminus. However, I do not have any knowledge if any polling has been done that would determine if people in Brookside and Waldo would not vote for the expansion if it does not extend to their neighborhoods. Nor do I know how large of a voting block they are to determine if it can pass without expanding there.

[flyingember]

for me KC needs two systems, urban and commuter

the question is how do you mix the two together to have the right cost to service mix? it's a hugely complex question.
How far does one go up N. Oak given it's opportunities for mid rise development over time. Do we go all the way down Wornall to south of 435? How many East-West lines are needed? How far east do we take north-south lines?