Re: New Broadway Bridge
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:48 am
IcOnic
Mayor Cleaver was partly right when he called light rail touristy frou-frou, but he was wrong about that being an insult. Kansas City needed a large dose of touristy frou-frou and the Streetcar delivered. I also see the ASB bridge as a potential tourist attraction. I visualize the streetcar approaching it at sunset from NKC, rolling through the trusses outlined in lights towards the skyline, with views of the river on both sides, just past the pedestrians and cyclists on the outer walkways. Try to imagine what all this would look like from the Berkley park river walk. Well I think it would look iconic!GRID wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:55 pmYeah, there is no reason to cross the river with transit unless it's full blown light rail or commuter rail. The ROI is just not there otherwise and it makes no sense to ask little 4500 population NKC to foot much more than a tiny percent of a transit river crossing that should benefit a much larger portion of the Northland's population of 350,000. I still think the Northland (mainly a route to KCI and Liberty) would be best served by a high quality BRT system running on the HOA Bridge. Run coach buses every 30 minutes from the proposed river market transit hub to KCI with a few slip ramps to park and rides along they way (similar to the Flatiron Flyer route in Denver) and you have the best transit connection to KCI possible, way better and way cheaper than rail.FangKC wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:00 pm Please explain what is is a cost benefit to extending the streetcar to municipality of North Kansas City, a city of 4,500 residents? About 20 percent of those are children; 14 percent are above retirement age. Why would that city spend millions to do it? It's more than $6,600 per resident (just to adapt the bridge using the aforementioned figure of $30 million). The cost per resident would actually be higher. How many of those residents are actually going to regularly use it--must less actually approve spending tax money to do it?
I can see merit is there is a broader, achievable plan to extend it further north into the Northland.
However, there are more employees and students (more than 9,100) at KU Medical Center than live in N. Kansas City, so expending the streetcar to Rosedale makes a lot more sense to me. It doesn't require upgrades to bridges. There are also more residents in the Rosedale neighborhood (14,000) of KCK than in N. Kansas City.
Transit should cross the river at some point by rail, but the northland needs way more people and density for rail. Till then, ASB should be a very good candidate for a recreation crossing. It wouldn't cost near as much to build trail approaches and a trail deck on the bridge. Louisville did it and they needed similar major approach infrastructure like KC would need.
I just cringe every time I hear about running the streetcar to KCI etc. It's not that kind of transit. It would cost so much, move so few and take forever for the few people that did use it to get anywhere. The streetcar is an urban tram. Nothing more. It's a good urban tram system though.
While the ASB does have some big obstacles, I still think that bridge along with possibly repurposing the old Broadway Bridge should be a part of a master plan to make the river a major recreational destination. So many cities have done it and yea, it does cost millions of dollars. But honestly, I think spending 25 million on something like that would do more for the city than adding a half mile or whatever it cost to extend the streetcar to a very lightly populated and car oriented area (even at full build out). Different people have different needs in a city I guess. The extension to the riverfront is okay I guess. It just seems really expensive for what it is and by far the best part of that project is not the streetcar extension, but the dedicated bike bridge IMO.
It wouldn’t be visible on the bridge from the east in Berkley Park. The HOA bridge is in the way from that angleRabble wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:12 pm
Mayor Cleaver was partly right when he called light rail touristy frou-frou, but he was wrong about that being an insult. Kansas City needed a large dose of touristy frou-frou and the Streetcar delivered. I also see the ASB bridge as a potential tourist attraction. I visualize the streetcar approaching it at sunset from NKC, rolling through the trusses outlined in lights towards the skyline, with views of the river on both sides, just past the pedestrians and cyclists on the outer walkways. Try to imagine what all this would look like from the Berkley park river walk. Well I think it would look iconic!
NKC may have be small but it is an urban town and the streetcar running up Swift would certainly add to their population and development.
Houston started from much less.
WoodDraw wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:11 pm The problem with our streetcar from day one has been sharing it with cars. I hate it but it's the only funding available. What can you do? It still can't even fix light priority.
Who's going to pay for it? Missouri doesn't give a fuck. Cleaver was a historically bad mayor in regards to transportation and I don't even know what he does today other than wait too long for someone to replace him.
I know most of you live in the current streetcar tax area? I'm not going to fund it.
People keep forgetting there is no demand anywhere else and they won't vote for it.
They shouldn't expand public streetcars either unless they get priority and to places of interest. Busses are better. Or if they pay for it.
I've seen for myself, the views from Berkley Park would be some what obstructed but still spectacular.flyingember wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:08 pmIt wouldn’t be visible on the bridge from the east in Berkley Park. The HOA bridge is in the way from that angleRabble wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:12 pm
Mayor Cleaver was partly right when he called light rail touristy frou-frou, but he was wrong about that being an insult. Kansas City needed a large dose of touristy frou-frou and the Streetcar delivered. I also see the ASB bridge as a potential tourist attraction. I visualize the streetcar approaching it at sunset from NKC, rolling through the trusses outlined in lights towards the skyline, with views of the river on both sides, just past the pedestrians and cyclists on the outer walkways. Try to imagine what all this would look like from the Berkley park river walk. Well I think it would look iconic!
NKC may have be small but it is an urban town and the streetcar running up Swift would certainly add to their population and development.
You can see this for yourself using google street view. The camera is about 8 feet in the air so more of the bridge would be hidden at pedestrian height
If the streetcar crossed over the Missouri on the ASB bridge you could have a stop on the levee for the new Harlem apartment buildings.alejandro46 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:03 pm This is veering off topic.
I am excited that the new bridge should both allow some pedestrian/bike access and result in a more accessible exit to Harlem. I really think this area is ripe for some re-development.
Because it’s free to ride and subsidized by downtown. What would they think if they had to pay?flyingember wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:25 pmWoodDraw wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:11 pm The problem with our streetcar from day one has been sharing it with cars. I hate it but it's the only funding available. What can you do? It still can't even fix light priority.
Who's going to pay for it? Missouri doesn't give a fuck. Cleaver was a historically bad mayor in regards to transportation and I don't even know what he does today other than wait too long for someone to replace him.
I know most of you live in the current streetcar tax area? I'm not going to fund it.
People keep forgetting there is no demand anywhere else and they won't vote for it.
They shouldn't expand public streetcars either unless they get priority and to places of interest. Busses are better. Or if they pay for it.
5 million riders thought it was good enough. That says more than anything I can in response.
A regional rail system would need to be more competitive vs car travel times than the streetcar. STL Metrolink has a max speed of 65-70 mph on entirely dedicated row. The initial 15-20 miles were old urban rail line converted to LRT but they have also built a lot along, below, and above existing road ROW. 50 miles of rails now.WoodDraw wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:14 pmBecause it’s free to ride and subsidized by downtown. What would they think if they had to pay?flyingember wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:25 pmWoodDraw wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:11 pm The problem with our streetcar from day one has been sharing it with cars. I hate it but it's the only funding available. What can you do? It still can't even fix light priority.
Who's going to pay for it? Missouri doesn't give a fuck. Cleaver was a historically bad mayor in regards to transportation and I don't even know what he does today other than wait too long for someone to replace him.
I know most of you live in the current streetcar tax area? I'm not going to fund it.
People keep forgetting there is no demand anywhere else and they won't vote for it.
They shouldn't expand public streetcars either unless they get priority and to places of interest. Busses are better. Or if they pay for it.
5 million riders thought it was good enough. That says more than anything I can in response.
I like this system. It’s used on the plaza to pay for parking too.
But it has its limits. Rcp can’t fund rail through the entire region, and what works on a starter line won’t work for extensions.
I'm happy with flyover ramps because their inclusion is to support a NorthLoop removal.
Well ok then, just shoot down my dreams
The light rail part was sarcasm. . Honestly, I would rather keep the Broadway bridge the way it is than have yet another boring freeway tentacle attached to downtown. And I find it unacceptable to not do something a bit more special with that bridge. I mean find a way. I can't even recall that last time I saw a city put up a girder bridge in a part of the city like that. Anymore, every city/state seems to find a way to build something interesting in an urban location like that. But I was told over and over that it doesn't need to be pretty! So fine, don't make a pretty bridge!Midtownkid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:41 pmWell ok then, just shoot down my dreams
Light rail happens to be part of the Seattle project, but not really what I am pointing out here. I was more attracted to the arching structure.
Who is 'everybody'? Can't it be attractive as well as functional? There is utility, and there is beauty and pride. I hate the idea that we have to simply accept utility with little importance put on aesthetics. That makes our city less interesting.