13th and Grand tower

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
dukuboy1
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by dukuboy1 »

This is a total shame, and basically a panic reaction by Copaken. It’s a total missed opportunity. The only positives are 1) at least it won’t be a parking lot, & 2) nice to see a need for more office space as more companies look to be downtown

Otherwise let’s call the design what it is; terribly dull and have no place in s downtown area that is mostly vertical in the buildings. This design would be better suited for a suburban office park, not a dense downtown area. This is s a terrible design and huge waste of time & effort. It reminds me s lot of the JE Dunn HQ which is ugly. It’s amazing to me why anyone would hire JE Dunn for a project knowing they designed the most stale & boring building for their own HQ. But I digress. On the 13th & Grand Tower I was expecting a 60 story monster but maybe 20 stories sitting a top a parking structure with some street level retail, etc.I loved the twisted tower concept. I just think this s total missed opportunity
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

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dukuboy1 wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 11:51 pm This is a total shame, and basically a panic reaction by Copaken. It’s a total missed opportunity. The only positives are 1) at least it won’t be a parking lot, & 2) nice to see a need for more office space as more companies look to be downtown

Otherwise let’s call the design what it is; terribly dull and have no place in s downtown area that is mostly vertical in the buildings. This design would be better suited for a suburban office park, not a dense downtown area. This is s a terrible design and huge waste of time & effort. It reminds me s lot of the JE Dunn HQ which is ugly. It’s amazing to me why anyone would hire JE Dunn for a project knowing they designed the most stale & boring building for their own HQ. But I digress. On the 13th & Grand Tower I was expecting a 60 story monster but maybe 20 stories sitting a top a parking structure with some street level retail, etc.I loved the twisted tower concept. I just think this s total missed opportunity
A. Architect is HOK - creator of monster towers and ehhhh suburban parks
B. There isn’t the market yet for any “monster towers.” Even Nashville has yet to see a monster office tower (as far as I know). Amazon Nashville is going in ~20 floor office buildings.
C. The current proposal provides ample ground fooor retail space (enough for target?), roof top park, and isn’t a glass box. Pretty good in my books
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normalthings
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by normalthings »

Also, last gent pointed out that this rendering does not appear to stretch the entire east-west axis of the block.
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by Eon Blue »

smh wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 3:44 pm 1200 parking spots in the proposal.
This, though.
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by horizons82 »

1200 spots next to all the P&L garages is insane. But why would there be any incentive for the developer to lower the count? The city gave away the farm on W&R.
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

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horizons82 wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 7:55 am 1200 spots next to all the P&L garages is insane. But why would there be any incentive for the developer to lower the count? The city gave away the farm on W&R.
The city signed off on this deal years ago. Maybe there is a pro to not allowing Copaken 7+ years to build.
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by kenrbnj »

It's attractive enough. Yes, disappointing it was not something 500' or greater.

..These surface lots are plentiful.. Until more of those plats are utilized; this is the product to expect; save for a single large user who desires a prestige project.

The bright side is this project -- and the others in-flight will build critical mass. The tower will come -- give it time.

(Do you all really think this is an ugly design? It seems attractive.)
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by normalthings »

kenrbnj wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 8:28 am It's attractive enough. Yes, disappointing it was not something 500' or greater.

..These surface lots are plentiful.. Until more of those plats are utilized; this is the product to expect; save for a single large user who desires a prestige project.

The bright side is this project -- and the others in-flight will build critical mass. The tower will come -- give it time.

(Do you all really think this is an ugly design? It seems attractive.)
I think it looks good enough and the view from P&L and Sprint Center will be much slenderer
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by KCPowercat »

I have no real positive/negative on it, but I really liked the twisty tower design so overall disappointed.
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by moderne »

Is this the only rendering available? Hard to judge aesthetics and site interaction with an image that is so one dimensional with only one facade featured.
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by dukuboy1 »

normalthings wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 11:57 pm
dukuboy1 wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 11:51 pm This is a total shame, and basically a panic reaction by Copaken. It’s a total missed opportunity. The only positives are 1) at least it won’t be a parking lot, & 2) nice to see a need for more office space as more companies look to be downtown

Otherwise let’s call the design what it is; terribly dull and have no place in s downtown area that is mostly vertical in the buildings. This design would be better suited for a suburban office park, not a dense downtown area. This is s a terrible design and huge waste of time & effort. It reminds me s lot of the JE Dunn HQ which is ugly. It’s amazing to me why anyone would hire JE Dunn for a project knowing they designed the most stale & boring building for their own HQ. But I digress. On the 13th & Grand Tower I was expecting a 60 story monster but maybe 20 stories sitting a top a parking structure with some street level retail, etc.I loved the twisted tower concept. I just think this s total missed opportunity
A. Architect is HOK - creator of monster towers and ehhhh suburban parks
B. There isn’t the market yet for any “monster towers.” Even Nashville has yet to see a monster office tower (as far as I know). Amazon Nashville is going in ~20 floor office buildings.
C. The current proposal provides ample ground fooor retail space (enough for target?), roof top park, and isn’t a glass box. Pretty good in my books
Sorry I should have said I was not expecting a 60 story monster tower. IMO I think those kind of builds will be reserved for special projects and in cities that already have them and a need for that kind of density. Maybe KC at some point will have a need and or grow large enough downtown where one would make sense. But I think the days of "monster towers" will be few and far between. However projects with 25-40 stories and vertical builds of a similar height would be feasible.

HOK is a great firm and happy to see them attached. It's a shame they can't design something with more vertical aesthetics. This design looks appealing, but in the wrong place. This spot should be looked at more vertical, even adding 10-15 stories could make a difference. What the rendering shows now would be awesome for the Crossroads, where the wider based buildings are now, even ones like Reverb that have a little height. This project would be awesome for the giant parking lot across from the old Bob Jones shoes building. If it had parking garage associated with it, it could provide a nice place & potential revenue generator for the city for people accessing the East Cross roads are in and around Grinders that has the most dining and Entertainment Venues in the Crossroads consolidated together. Plus the development of the old KC Star Bldg and what they are doing there, moving this project in that area would be awesome.

But those are just ideas, and from just little ol' me. I'm glad to see the site moving forward and a building is better than a parking lot there. I just thought the twisty building was unique and provided something that would be unique to KC, like the "Batman" Building is to Nashville
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by flyingember »

GRID wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 10:56 pm 13th and Grand would be perfect for a 30-50 story tower because Downtown KC seriously lacks a large structure east of Grand, especially a modern structure built past 1960.
No, it doesn't.

The Sheraton

1980, 45 stories, east of Grand
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by flyingember »

horizons82 wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 7:55 am 1200 spots next to all the P&L garages is insane. But why would there be any incentive for the developer to lower the count? The city gave away the farm on W&R.
We want this garage. It dramatically lowers the value of everyone charging so much for parking on the hundreds of spots around the Sprint Center. This will dramatically increase the value of these lots for development.
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by normalthings »

BOE pre demo permit filed. implosion coming soon?
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by kenrbnj »

flyingember wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 1:04 pm
horizons82 wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 7:55 am 1200 spots next to all the P&L garages is insane. But why would there be any incentive for the developer to lower the count? The city gave away the farm on W&R.
We want this garage. It dramatically lowers the value of everyone charging so much for parking on the hundreds of spots around the Sprint Center. This will dramatically increase the value of these lots for development.
..An excellent point, since there's not a "Like" button.

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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by horizons82 »

flyingember wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 1:04 pm
horizons82 wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 7:55 am 1200 spots next to all the P&L garages is insane. But why would there be any incentive for the developer to lower the count? The city gave away the farm on W&R.
We want this garage. It dramatically lowers the value of everyone charging so much for parking on the hundreds of spots around the Sprint Center. This will dramatically increase the value of these lots for development.
It’s early on and we’re going off of just a number, so who knows. However, you’re presuming what the availability of those spaces will be. While you’d hope that spaces would be available for users outside of just this building, we can’t be certain of that. Building tenants, use type, and lease requirements could render any on-paper surplus in the garage moot relative to the overall “market” for parking. What is certain is that downtown already has a surplus of parking, but we’re not able to use it effectively.
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by flyingember »

The large ~1000 spot garage north of P&L is used by two buildings and always has spaces and is open for events.

I would expect it’s sized to have a surplus. They can make way more money having extra spaces they can lease out at event rates than filling with tenants.
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by horizons82 »

Again you’re making assumptions about availability. Until there’s a plan (physical and financial) in front of the council, it’s indeterminate if the garage contributes positively to the surrounding city. But based on the number alone, which again is all we have at this point, that’s a massive add to supply downtown.

Some tenants of the office space could stipulate extra spaces available, just like W&R has done. Someone mentioned a target earlier, if you get one of those, they typically demand a huge number of spaces, beyond what code stipulates. (I recognize this site lies within the no parking minimum area)

The most optimistic reading would be that they’re building the garage to also service whatever eventually goes on the KCPS site. If that’s the case, fantastic. Given KC’s recent development history, I think some skepticism is fair.
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by TrolliKC »

horizons82 wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 7:55 am 1200 spots next to all the P&L garages is insane. But why would there be any incentive for the developer to lower the count? The city gave away the farm on W&R.
Capacity for future downtown ballpark
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Re: 13th and Grand tower

Post by horizons82 »

Does Copaken have any ties to the new Royals group? Hard to keep track of all the names.
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